General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[dudalb]

Indeed, they didn't get to carry out executions.

Thanks for the links. I was aware that the Jewish population of North Africa was persecuted, but thought that was pretty much done by the Vichy government.
You have to laugh a little on the timing of setting up the Einsatzgruppen:A month after El Alamein.......

 

[Wroclaw]

I think it's fairly well established that Einsatzgruppe Aegypten would have killed Jews in Palestine if things had gone differently at el Alamein.

 

[A'isha]

Period 1

Actually, no. He didn't become head of II D until after he returned from his second stint in the Navy.

In February 1940, he was head of Amt I G, RSHA Technische Angelegenheiten - Nachrichtenenverbindungen und Kraftfahrwesen (with Pradel even back then his subordinate as head of the Gestapo section of Referat I G 3 Kraftfahrwesen). Only later was the RSHA reorganized, and the technical section split between the general RSHA technical support office of II D, and the special technical affairs office supporting the RSHA's foreign intelligence department, VI F.

Period 2

Yes. He went to Prague with Heydrich, but still went to Berlin often to perform his other duties (such as heading up II D).

Period 3

The period 2 demonstrate that Walter Rauff was not chief of the section and travelled to to Berlin as subordinate of Reinhard Heydrich.

Yes, he travelled to Berlin as a subordinate of Reinhard Heydrich, but he was indeed head of II D, because Heydrich was in overall command of the RSHA itself!

Your are using a misinterpretation from period 2 to explain why Walter Rauff "was not as separate as his extremely brief 1945 statement implies", therefore creating a deceptive explanation.

No misinterpretation. Rauff himself said he was head of II D, traveled back and forth between Prague and Berlin, and assigned tasks to RSHA officers in II D who were his subordinates.

I'm not relying on anything but his own words, contemporary documents he issued, and the words of his subordinates.

You, on the other hand, are using a single incomplete description of his personal biography, with known gaps, to say the March 1942 letter is a forgery because Rauff wasn't in Amt II D at the time it was written...despite the fact that this is contradicted by every single other piece of documentary evidence and witness testimony describing Rauff's assignments in the RSHA! Plus, you think that the rest of the statement containing that biography description is false!

How on Earth do you expect to be taken seriously?

The garrison doctor have nothing to do with Walter Rauff.

Right. Which is why Rauff only talks about him in the context of referring to the doctor's procedures.

However, gas vans had everything to do with Rauff, which is why the entire rest of the document is about those vans.

Your nonsense about how the document is a forgery because Rauff wouldn't be ordering around a garrison doctor or whatever is nothing but a red herring, since Rauff isn't doing anything of the sort.

http://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichssicherheitshauptamt#section_2

Walter Rauff

This is kind of funny, because the German wiki entry you link to is about the March 1941 Organizational Structure of the RSHA, which lists Rauff as the head of Amt II D...and also as the head of Amt VI F (he was replaced in June 1942 by Hermann Dörner [or Jörner]).

But you did not provided one single document which directly prove the promotion from captain to major...

I already gave you multiple documents showing he held the rank of Major at the time those documents were written. Now it's your turn to show me some documents.

Find one that lists Pradel as a Captain after March 1942. Show me how you know he never got promoted, as all the documents and Dr. Becker himself say.

It is a forgery... Just a quick comparison with official documents from the Third Reich demonstrate that sending code is completely wrong.

Really? Oh, please, show me these "official documents" that you're comparing the March 1942 document to.

Wrong.

Because X use information from Y, it does not mean X agree with all Y.

How remarkably convenient for you. I'm completely and utterly surprised and shocked that you would think this.

 

[dafydd]

I supposed most of them died from diseases.

Some did, some were starved to death, some were gassed. It's part of history.

 

[dafydd]

Where did Hitler find six million political prisoners? What were their crimes, apart from being Jewish?

 

[dafydd]

Actually, no. He didn't become head of II D until after he returned from his second stint in the Navy.

In February 1940, he was head of Amt I G, RSHA Technische Angelegenheiten - Nachrichtenenverbindungen und Kraftfahrwesen (with Pradel even back then his subordinate as head of the Gestapo section of Referat I G 3 Kraftfahrwesen). Only later was the RSHA reorganized, and the technical section split between the general RSHA technical support office of II D, and the special technical affairs office supporting the RSHA's foreign intelligence department, VI F.



Yes. He went to Prague with Heydrich, but still went to Berlin often to perform his other duties (such as heading up II D).





Yes, he travelled to Berlin as a subordinate of Reinhard Heydrich, but he was indeed head of II D, because Heydrich was in overall command of the RSHA itself!



No misinterpretation. Rauff himself said he was head of II D, traveled back and forth between Prague and Berlin, and assigned tasks to RSHA officers in II D who were his subordinates.

I'm not relying on anything but his own words, contemporary documents he issued, and the words of his subordinates.

You, on the other hand, are using a single incomplete description of his personal biography, with known gaps, to say the March 1942 letter is a forgery because Rauff wasn't in Amt II D at the time it was written...despite the fact that this is contradicted by every single other piece of documentary evidence and witness testimony describing Rauff's assignments in the RSHA! Plus, you think that the rest of the statement containing that biography description is false!

How on Earth do you expect to be taken seriously?



Right. Which is why Rauff only talks about him in the context of referring to the doctor's procedures.

However, gas vans had everything to do with Rauff, which is why the entire rest of the document is about those vans.

Your nonsense about how the document is a forgery because Rauff wouldn't be ordering around a garrison doctor or whatever is nothing but a red herring, since Rauff isn't doing anything of the sort.



This is kind of funny, because the German wiki entry you link to is about the March 1941 Organizational Structure of the RSHA, which lists Rauff as the head of Amt II D...and also as the head of Amt VI F (he was replaced in June 1942 by Hermann Dörner [or Jörner]).



I already gave you multiple documents showing he held the rank of Major at the time those documents were written. Now it's your turn to show me some documents.

Find one that lists Pradel as a Captain after March 1942. Show me how you know he never got promoted, as all the documents and Dr. Becker himself say.



Really? Oh, please, show me these "official documents" that you're comparing the March 1942 document to.



How remarkably convenient for you. I'm completely and utterly surprised and shocked that you would think this.

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but what does all this have to do with the claim that Hitler gassed mostly political prisoners?

 

[A'isha]

Yet, not one single reference to a primary evidence to support your fictional explanation for a forgery.

Actually, you received lots of primary evidence. You just don't want to accept any of it.

You, in fact, will not accept any of it no matter how much I show you.

 

[SnakeTongue]

The "claim" that you will find if you look in, for example, Hilberg - and your nearly insane questioning about an obvious point, obvious to anyone who has even basic familiarity with the Holocaust, is half amusing and half annoying - is that over 5 million Jews were exterminated by the National Socialists and some of their allies - approximately 3 million of these in camps, with about 2.6 million of these victims killed by gassing; approximately 1.4 million in organized shooting actions; and about 0.7 million in ghettos by starvation, aggravated disease, shootings, etc. (Compared to these numbers, a very small number of POWs and Poles were put to death by the National Socialists in gas chambers.)

FINALLY!

Now I can have a idea what is the "right" claim you support.

I don't know of a single person claiming that millions of political prisoners were put to death by gas. Nor do you. You wrote something exaggerated and dramatic, probably for effect, and your comment was stupid, and for whatever reason, you have refused to say "oops" now for weeks. Silly.

Let's start again with my post corrected by your "right" claim.

The original claim: German Third Reich had mass exterminate Jews (...) about 2.6 million (...) a very small number of POWs and Poles with gas chambers.

Therefore, being the German Third Reich the accused, the burden of proof remains on the accuser.

In the case the accuser provide dubious evidence to prove the claim,

Romanorum legis: in dubio pro reo.

Where is the evidence which proves that "about 2.6 million" were killed in homicidal gas chambers?

You didn't answer my question about why you and other revisionists so frequently distort what people write.

I told you once. I am not revisionist and I do not answer for them.

This, of course, is not what I said: I said that throughout this thread I had cited (and discussed) many primary sources. I mentioned the Jaeger report as an example. Despite your rather vacuous yellow highlighting, the Jaeger report and Sakowicz's diary, which meshes with it, are primary sources - they are neither my discussion nor secondary sources.

Seriously, can you not read?

I am reading right now your contradiction to explain how you could not provide a reference for primary evidence...

What makes you think I presented these photos as proof of people's being gassed? You didn't ask for proof of gassing, you asked, I posted the closest match to your question known. Your question was stupid, because German workers didn't dispose of dead bodies at the death camps - members of the Jewish Sonderkommando and burial teams did.

From yourself:

(...)

I wrote that "in this thread I have cited many primary sources showing mass extermination of Jews." Is the phrase "in this thread" above your reading comprehension ability? Or do you routinely lie?

(...) as well as photographs of cremations at Birkenau, latter Pressac's study with many documents included.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8161027&postcount=45

I am curious. I asked for pictures with German workers, but you said that "German workers didn't dispose of dead bodies at the death camps - members of the Jewish Sonderkommando and burial teams did."

So, which was the nationality of these "Jewish Sonderkommando"?

Your loss. Very good researchers have looked at this material and have interesting and useful things to say about it. I have seen that you are not above cribbing from revisionists, however. Beautiful. But, again, you are seem not to be grasping the very simple point that the Jaeger report is not a secondary but a primary source. Had you looked it up, or reviewed some posts in this thread, you might have spared yourself making such an ignorant comment. But there is no accounting, is there?

I will see if such report address any primary evidence...

Actually, no, I am not. Your question was almost incomprehensible, so, to try to understand it, I asked if you meant what I thought you meant.

I asked where I can find more "illegal photos".

 

[A'isha]

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but what does all this have to do with the claim that Hitler gassed mostly political prisoners?

Beats me. That's the subject of LemmyCaution's argument with SnakeTongue, and I have no idea what SnakeTongue has been going on about.

I've just been rubbing his face in the documentary evidence for the gas vans, and enjoying watching him flee from every question I've asked him.

 

[A'isha]

I told you once. I am not revisionist and I do not answer for them.

That's true.

You're just a flat-out denier.

 

[dafydd]

SnakeTongue, at the end of the war there were six million Jews who disappeared from Europe. What happened to them?

 

[dafydd]

Where is the evidence which proves that "about 2.6 million" were killed in homicidal gas chambers?

In the history books.

 

[dafydd]

That's true.

You're just a flat-out denier.

Why do these people never come right out with it and say they hate Jews?

 

[A'isha]

Here's how Rauff talked about his time in Amt II of the RSHA (specifically as head of II D), in his Chile deposition. See how it lines up (or doesn't) with his claim to have been head of the "technical section" from February to March 1940, and then to not have been the head again until supposedly two years later, May of 1942:

During the Polish campaign I was in Berlin. During the Norwegian campaign I was in Oslo to organize the news communications with Germany from there. Heydrich had told me that thereafter I could for some time go back to the navy. From the beginning of 1940 onward I thus was with the navy for at least a year, clearing mines in the Channel. In the first months of 1941 I was called back to Berlin. As they told me, Heydrich himself had requested me from Raeder.

I now became head of division II D at the RSHA. In this division all technical matters were regulated. The division II D (technology) consisted of 6 or 7 sections. I was head of division until several months after the death of Heydrich. Thereafter I was sent to an assignment in Africa with Rommel.

When Heydrich went to Prague as a Protector I accompanied him there to organize the local news network. During this time I often traveled between Berlin and Prague.

[He was made head of II D as soon as he returned to the RSHA from the Navy in early 1941, before Heydrich was appointed Protector in September 1941, and when Heydrich and he went to Prague he still traveled back and forth to Berlin a lot]

When the attempt occurred I was in Berlin and about to leave for Rome. When Heydrich’s aides told me that his life was not in danger I traveled to Rome. As far as I remember I stayed at the RSHA another 3 – 4 months after Heydrich’s death. I think Kaltenbrunner had already been nominated Heydrich’s successor when I went to Africa. If I’m now being told that Kaltenbrunner took charge only at the beginning of 1943 and that Heydrich died on 4 June 1942, however, I would like to say that I had already gone to Africa at the time Kaltenbrunner took charge.

[He was still in the RSHA as the head of II D for a few months after June 1942]

I don’t know if Streckenbach was in any way involved in the administration of department II, but I don’t think he was. As far as I can remember Dr. Siegert was full head of department and not just in charge of heading department II on behalf of someone else.

[...]

Also after having been shown Heydrich’s letter of 20.6.1941 (sheet 6802) I can only say that I cannot remember ever having seen this letter. Even after having taken knowledge of the contents of this letter I cannot remember that Dr. Siegert should have headed department II only in someone else’s representation.

[Rauff here talks about who was in charge of Amt II in June of 1941, which only matters because that would have been his superior, as chief of II D.]

[...]

For the provision of the motor vehicles of the security police my subordinate Pradel was responsible. Pradel, who had come from the order police, didn’t like me and was in a certain conflict with me. As to whether I had differences with him regarding the provision of motor vehicles for an upcoming assignment after my return from the navy, I consider that possible, but cannot remember it exactly. I can neither remember having had a meeting with Streckenbach in this respect.


[Rauff was not exactly friendly with Pradel, which probably explains why he didn't care about Pradel's correct rank. He also notes that Pradel was his subordinate after his return from the Navy in early 1941, which makes no sense if Rauff was not in charge of II D because otherwise Pradel would not have been his subordinate, nor would Pradel and Rauff have needed to even talk about motor pool assignments, much less argue about them, if Rauff was not in charge of II D, the department responsible for the motor pool of the RSHA.]

I have been shown the respective statements of Pradel in his interrogation on 30.3 1971 (Sheet 6965 f, 6969). I can only say the following about this: The major Puschke that Pradel mentions is not known to me; I always dealt on a higher level, i.e. with General Fellgiebel in matters of communication material. In matters of motor vehicles I dealt at a similar level with the OKW, without however being still able to provide a name. It is not correct that, as Pradel states, I only returned to the department from the navy after the commencement of the Russian campaign.

[Here Rauff pretty much flat-out states that he "returned to the department" (ie, the technical department of the RSHA, Amt II D, before Operation Barbarossa kicked off in June 1941!]

[...]

Regarding the equipment of the Einsatzgruppen in the Russian campaign I must have received my instructions from the then in charge head of department, without being able to say if at the time it was Dr. Nockemann or Dr. Siegert. I think that I returned from the navy in March or April of 1941. Whether the preparations for the Russian campaign in regard to the equipment of the Einsatzgruppen had already commenced at this time I don’t know.

[In June 1941, Rauff was taking orders from the head of Amt II, which makes perfect sense if he was subordinate to the head of Amt II, as the man in charge of II D.]

[...]

I consider it impossible that Pradel should have carried out the development of the gas vans on his own initiative. He must have received an order for this either from me or from another superior standing above me.

Whether at that time I had doubts against the use of gas vans I cannot say. The main issue for me at the time was that the shootings were a considerable burden for the man who were in charge thereof and that this burden was taken off them through the use of the gas vans.

I don’t think that Dr. Siegert was involved in these matters at the time, although he probably knew about them.

It is correct that I received something from Becker about the used of gas vans. I myself had told Becker to send me a corresponding report.

[Here he describes not only his involvement in getting II D 3 a's commander, Pradel, to develop the gas vans, he also mentions giving orders to Becker about the report on the vans, which was done months before the report was submitted in May 1942, meaning Rauff was Becker's superior in II D before May 1942. He also talks about the involvement (or lack thereof) of his own superior in Amt II in the development of the vans. Remember, the vans were proposed and constructed way before May 1942, so if Rauff says he was involved in their origins, that means he was a part of II D before that date)]

In other words, Rauff was not telling the whole story about his RSHA service in his 1945 statement, and elaborated quite a bit in his later deposition...including the full details of just how long he was involved in Amt II D!

 

[LemmyCaution]

FINALLY!

Hunh?

Now I can have a idea what is the "right" claim you support.

Why did you misstate what is claimed about mass gassings? In theory, I could disagree with Hilberg on whether there were 2.6 million Jewish victims - and still correct your lunacy about what has been claimed.

Where is the evidence which proves that "about 2.6 million" were killed in homicidal gas chambers?

In different archives and, sadly for you, cited and evaluated in many secondary works.

I told you once. I am not revisionist and I do not answer for them.

Well, then answer for yourself: why do you repeatedly distort what other people write?

I am reading right now your contradiction to explain how you could not provide a reference for primary evidence...

Not to be mean, but your sentence means nothing - and I cannot fathom what you are trying to say about what I wrote.

Again, slowly: the Jaeger report is a primary document, written by an Einsatzkommando commander about his operations and accomplishments in Lithuania during 1941; Sakowicz's diary is a primary document, a journal kept by a Polish journalist who witnessed some of the work of the SS in Lithuania, at Ponar, and kept a record of what he witnessed.

I am curious. I asked for pictures with German workers, but you said that "German workers didn't dispose of dead bodies at the death camps - members of the Jewish Sonderkommando and burial teams did."

So, which was the nationality of these "Jewish Sonderkommando"?

I know of Greek (many from Salonika), Czech, Polish, French, Dutch, and Hungarian SK members. Members of the SK were nearly all Jewish, and all were under the command of the camp SS.

You seem exceptionally lazy. I have already linked to a book in which you can find this information, Gideon Greif's We Wept Without Tears.

I will see if such report address any primary evidence...

You do that. Maybe you will find this report about the time you figure out who Himmler was.

I asked where I can find more "illegal photos".

If you mean of the Birkenau SK, you could start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando. I am not, however, your research assistant.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Beats me. That's the subject of LemmyCaution's argument with SnakeTongue, and I have no idea what SnakeTongue has been going on about.

I've just been rubbing his face in the documentary evidence for the gas vans, and enjoying watching him flee from every question I've asked him.

Quite nicely, too.

As to the mass gassing of millions of political prisoners, it is a truly silly discussion point, so far from reality is SnakeTongue's gaffe - and at this point I too find myself struggling to understand what SnakeTongue is going on about.

Apparently, among his other fine qualities, SnakeTongue is unable to admit an error when he makes one. And when referred to primary evidence, he will say no one has shown him any primary sources OR he will claim that a primary source is a secondary work.

 

[OCaptain]

Here, a "bone" for you:

[qimg]http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6148/talesfromholowood3.jpg[/qimg]

Is four million dead not still a Holocaust? I don't get it.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Actually, no. He didn't become head of II D until after he returned from his second stint in the Navy.

In February 1940, he was head of Amt I G, RSHA Technische Angelegenheiten - Nachrichtenenverbindungen und Kraftfahrwesen (with Pradel even back then his subordinate as head of the Gestapo section of Referat I G 3 Kraftfahrwesen). Only later was the RSHA reorganized, and the technical section split between the general RSHA technical support office of II D, and the special technical affairs office supporting the RSHA's foreign intelligence department, VI F.

Yes. He went to Prague with Heydrich, but still went to Berlin often to perform his other duties (such as heading up II D). Yes, he travelled to Berlin as a subordinate of Reinhard Heydrich, but he was indeed head of II D, because Heydrich was in overall command of the RSHA itself!

Where are you references? I will put again what I have already provided to highlight how you like to support a forgery by producing deceptive explanations:

I was the chief of the Section (...) This group was known as II D. (...) I then became chief of the section again from May 1942 to June 1942.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/2348-ps.asp

II D (Technische Angelegenheiten): SS-Obersturmbannführer Walter Rauff

http://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichssicherheitshauptamt#section_2

No misinterpretation. Rauff himself said he was head of II D, traveled back and forth between Prague and Berlin, and assigned tasks to RSHA officers in II D who were his subordinates.

Walter Rauff only admitted that he travelled back to Berlin, not that he was still chief of the section.

When Heydrich went to Prague as a Protector I accompanied him there to organize the local news network. During this time I often traveled between Berlin and Prague. When the attempt occurred I was in Berlin and about to leave for Rome. When Heydrich's aides told me that his life was not in danger I traveled to Rome.

http://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/r/rauff.walter/Rauff-deposition-translation

I'm not relying on anything but his own words, contemporary documents he issued, and the words of his subordinates. You, on the other hand, are using a single incomplete description of his personal biography, with known gaps, to say the March 1942 letter is a forgery because Rauff wasn't in Amt II D at the time it was written...despite the fact that this is contradicted by every single other piece of documentary evidence and witness testimony describing Rauff's assignments in the RSHA! Plus, you think that the rest of the statement containing that biography description is false! How on Earth do you expect to be taken seriously?

I am not here pleading you "to be taken seriously". I am here to expose you.

Right. Which is why Rauff only talks about him in the context of referring to the doctor's procedures. However, gas vans had everything to do with Rauff, which is why the entire rest of the document is about those vans.

You said "gas vans"? The document text address "special cars", not "gas vans".

Your nonsense about how the document is a forgery because Rauff wouldn't be ordering around a garrison doctor or whatever is nothing but a red herring, since Rauff isn't doing anything of the sort.

Still, Walter Rauff office have nothing to do with the garrison doctor... Did you even notice that the letter is supposedly directed to the "V D (Kriminaltechnisches Institut der Sicherheitspolizei)".

VD ( Criminal Technical Institute of the Security Police ): SS Lieutenant Colonel and top government and superintendent Dr.-Ing. Walter Heeß VD one (trace ID): SS-Captain and Superintendent Dr.-Ing. Walter shame VD 2 (Chemistry and Biology): SS lieutenant, Dr.-Ing. Albert Widmann VD 3 (test certificate): Superintendent Felix Wittlich

http://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichssicherheitshauptamt#section_2 Which amazing fictional tale you have to explain why would Walter Rauff address procedures of a garrison doctor and report to an office which is not responsible for the garrison doctor?

This is kind of funny, because the German wiki entry you link to is about the March 1941 Organizational Structure of the RSHA, which lists Rauff as the head of Amt II D...and also as the head of Amt VI F (he was replaced in June 1942 by Hermann Dörner [or Jörner]).

So?

I already gave you multiple documents showing he held the rank of Major at the time those documents were written. Now it's your turn to show me some documents.

My turn? I pass. You turn now.

Find one that lists Pradel as a Captain after March 1942. Show me how you know he never got promoted, as all the documents and Dr. Becker himself say.

You are trying to revert on me your failure to present the document which proves the promotion of Friedrich Pradel...

Really? Oh, please, show me these "official documents" that you're comparing the March 1942 document to.

Ok. I will gather the documents to show you.

How remarkably convenient for you. I'm completely and utterly surprised and shocked that you would think this.

I glad you enjoyed.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Where did Hitler find six million political prisoners? What were their crimes, apart from being Jewish?

An interesting question.

I have been wondering how the Jews were identified and captured.

 

[OCaptain]

Why do these people never come right out with it and say they hate Jews?

Clayton pretty much does.