Gay rights vs Trans rights?

[TragicMonkey]

There is no sexual gratification?

Still wondering what rape has to do with discussing MSM who don't identify as gay or bi?

It's part of the denial of sexual fluidity. The premise is that firm (FIRM!!) boundaries exist between the neat categories of human sexuality, and individuals fall into those categories and do not cross those borders. So when they do cross those borders well, they have a very valid non-sexual excuse for it.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

If the people looking to deny trans people their rights get their wish, they'll go after gay people next.

 

[theprestige]

If the people looking to deny trans people their rights get their wish, they'll go after gay people next.

Trans people already enjoy all the same rights as gay people. There is no significant push in western society to take those away, from either group.

Gay people aren't pushing for anti-science, anti-social, anti-women entitlements that go far, far beyond the simple right to "live and let live". Except when they're advocating trans agendas out of a misguided sense of allyship.

 

[arthwollipot]

Trans people already enjoy all the same rights as gay people. There is no significant push in western society to take those away, from either group.

Load of bull.

Gay people aren't pushing for anti-science, anti-social, anti-women entitlements that go far, far beyond the simple right to "live and let live". Except when they're advocating trans agendas out of a misguided sense of allyship.

Neither are trans people.

 

[Trausti]

If the people looking to deny trans people their rights get their wish, they'll go after gay people next.

The right of grown men to watch little girls undress in the changing room is an odd hill to die on.

 

[jt512]

Or straight. The world is much messier than you think it is.

So to speak.

 

[jt512]

I can understand the pushback from personal incredulity, it's the same incredulity that faced the likes of bisexuals a few decades back. You can find a ton of research on it with a quick google search. It is a demographic that exists.

So are people who claim cat identities. I don't care what you call yourself; that's your problem. But if you are a man and you have sex with other men, you are not heterosexual by definition. You don't want to accept the standard definition? Fine by me, but don't expect me to accept to your definition. Your definition is your problem, not mine.

 

[mumblethrax]

But if you are a man and you have sex with other men, you are not heterosexual by definition. You don't want to accept the standard definition? Fine by me, but don't expect me to accept to your definition. Your definition is your problem, not mine.

Yours is the non-standard definition. Hetero-/homosexuality goes to attraction. It's possible, and in some circumstances even likely, to be attracted to one group of people while having sex with another.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Load of bull.

Just because you say so, or do you have anything to substantiate this?

Neither are trans people.

Now that is provably untrue. There are any number of examples, which can easily be found in the Trans Women thread.

 

[arthwollipot]

Just because you say so, or do you have anything to substantiate this?

Yeah. There was just a big Report released in the UK which recommends denying trans people under 25 the right to bodily autonomy.

Now that is provably untrue. There are any number of examples, which can easily be found in the Trans Women thread.

I wasn't aware that there were any trans people participating in that thread. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to any of my trans friends.

 

[arthwollipot]

The right of grown men to watch little girls undress in the changing room is an odd hill to die on.

Which is good, because there is literally nobody defending that.

 

[Elaedith]

Yeah. There was just a big Report released in the UK which recommends denying trans people under 25 the right to bodily autonomy.

No it doesn't. That statement is just demonstrably false and shows you are repeating activist propaganda without the most basic fact checking.

 

[RoMo]

Yeah. There was just a big Report released in the UK which recommends denying trans people under 25 the right to bodily autonomy.

No it didn't, it recommended continuity of care for people aged 18-25 rather than changing to an adult service as soon as they reach 18, allowing them to remain in the same clinical setting with the same care providers.

 

[arthwollipot]

No it doesn't. That statement is just demonstrably false and shows you are repeating activist propaganda without the most basic fact checking.

No it didn't, it recommended continuity of care for people aged 18-25 rather than changing to an adult service as soon as they reach 18, allowing them to remain in the same clinical setting with the same care providers.

Yeah it does. It's in paragraphs 16.34-41, page 196-197. Go take a look if you want.

ETA: Chapter 12 recommends against even social transitioning without the supervision of a medical doctor.

 

[Elaedith]

Yeah it does. It's in paragraphs 16.34-41, page 196-197. Go take a look if you want.

ETA: Chapter 12 recommends against even social transitioning without the supervision of a medical doctor.

There is nothing in those paragraphs about 'denying bodily autonomy to trans people under 25'. It is a summary of the risks versus benefits of hormone treatments for those under 18 based on current evidence, and advises extreme caution for starting hormone treatments in those under 18. The report does not cover recommendations for anyone over 18.

 

[Elaedith]

Yeah it does. It's in paragraphs 16.34-41, page 196-197. Go take a look if you want.

ETA: Chapter 12 recommends against even social transitioning without the supervision of a medical doctor.

It says families should seek the advise of a clinician before socially transitioning a child before puberty. This is an evidence-based recommendation, as all the evidence considered together suggests social transition is not a neutral intervention and may increase the likelihood of future medical transition. I realise this goes against the gospel of Gorski and Novella, but skeptics are supposed to consider that their beliefs may be inaccurate when confronted with evidence that contradicts them.

ETA: this supports my point about the difference between gay rights and trans rights movements. The gay rights movement did not generally propose a set of philosophical beliefs and empirical claims about sex and gender and then shield them from critical evaluation by labelling dissent as homophobia.

Having people agree with your beliefs about sex and gender is not a civil right any more than requiring people to agree with your religious beliefs is a civil right. A recommendation for clinical supervision and caution before applying an intervention for a young child that may increase the chance that they end up infertile and medicated for life is not a breach of anyone's civil rights.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Yeah. There was just a big Report released in the UK which recommends denying trans people under 25 the right to bodily autonomy.

I wasn't aware that there were any trans people participating in that thread. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to any of my trans friends.

Please don't dodge like that. It's not a question of whether or not trans people are actively participating in the thread. It's about examples of how trans activists are promoting pseudo-science and demanding rights that infringe the rights of others. As I said, that thread is stuffed full of examples of this.

Yeah it does. It's in paragraphs 16.34-41, page 196-197. Go take a look if you want.

16.34 In considering endocrine interventions,
the large number of unknowns regarding the
risk/benefits in any one individual and the
lack of robust information to help them make
decisions present a major problem in obtaining
informed consent.


41 The overarching conclusion from the
evidence presented in this Review is that
the puberty blocker trial, which is already in
development, needs to be one part of a much
broader research programme that seeks to
build the evidence on all potential interventions,
and to determine the most effective way of
supporting these children and young people.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/CassReview_Final.pdf
I've skipped the intervening paragraphs, to save space, but I think the gist is clear. Now, perhaps you could highlight which part of this you consider to be denying the undr-25s the right to bodily autonomy?

ETA: Chapter 12 recommends against even social transitioning without the supervision of a medical doctor.

No, it doesn't. ETA: ninjad! Apparently, it does.The subject is social transitioning for children, and this is what they have to say about it:

12.31 Given the weakness of the research in
this area there remain many unknowns about
the impact of social transition. In particular, it is
unclear whether it alters the trajectory of gender
development, and what short- and longer-term
impact this may have on mental health.

The conclusion is that a complex interplay
between prenatal androgen levels, external
genitalia, sex of rearing and socio-cultural
environment all play a part in eventual
gender identity, and we have yet to
understand the relative influence of these
various elements.

Once again, I invite you to quote the specific parts you say are there. Then, some explanation about how you think this balanced and evidence-based report is an attack on trans rights would be welcome.

 

[zooterkin]

Since the thread has devolved into a more general discussion of trans issues, we are closing it. Please take any further discussion to the existing thread on this topic.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin