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Gay rights vs Trans rights?

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Hercules56 said:
They are not straight, they are Gay or Bisexual.
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Nope.

Hercules56 said:
Heterosexual men do not casually and willingly have sex with other men.
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Some men do. I know you are finding it hard to understand, and you are not the only one, that is one of the reasons why they (MSM) went unnoticed for so long. They do not accept the label of gay, because they know "gay" is an identity claim which is not limited to who you have sex with, they also do not accept the label bisexual for the same reason.

Short intro here that gives a few other places to go if you want to understand the matter: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/...-men-who-have-sex-with-other-men-in-their-own
 
Well this one went deep in the weeds fast.

If you are bi, you are both heterosexual and homosexual. That would go for pansexuals and all the other rewordings of bi. If you are "curious", but not sexually attracted to... the person you are having sex with... well that's a little weird, but I guess some might willingly have sex with someone they have no sexual interest in or attraction to. I guess.
 
Darat said:
Nope.



Some men do. I know you are finding it hard to understand, and you are not the only one, that is one of the reasons why they (MSM) went unnoticed for so long. They do not accept the label of gay, because they know "gay" is an identity claim which is not limited to who you have sex with, they also do not accept the label bisexual for the same reason....
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If you **** other men, you're gay or bi.
 
Hercules56 said:
If you **** other men, you're gay or bi.
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Well, you clearly don't believe transwomen are women. What'd you call a man whose attracted to women and sufficiently transitioned transwomen, but not to non-transitioned men?
 
Darat said:
Or straight. The world is much messier than you think it is.

"Gay" and "bisexual" are often identities, not merely a label based on the sex of the person you have sex with.
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Declaring ones self an ocelot is an identity too. But no one cares. Terms like "bi" can be used objectively. If someone is sexually attracted to people of the same sex, it doesn't matter (objectively) what they identify as. They are homosexual. Possibly also heterosexual, but that's off to the side.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
I'm gonna file that article under "woo".

Some men claim that anonymous, experimental, occasional, or inebriated sex with other men is not “gay.”

Oh, c'mon. that doesn't even pass the laugh test.
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I can understand the pushback from personal incredulity, it's the same incredulity that faced the likes of bisexuals a few decades back. You can find a ton of research on it with a quick google search. It is a demographic that exists.
 
Thermal said:
Declaring ones self an ocelot is an identity too. But no one cares. Terms like "bi" can be used objectively. If someone is sexually attracted to people of the same sex, it doesn't matter (objectively) what they identify as. They are homosexual. Possibly also heterosexual, but that's off to the side.
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As I said above - your personal incredulity is understandable, but the demographic exists. As an example - some of these men will tell you that they don't find other men sexually attractive it is simply convenience, much the same way as I am sure most "straight" men don't find their right hand nor their fleshlight sexually attractive, both are merely convenient.

Sexuality is more complex than many people believe, or it seems are willing to believe.
 
Darat said:
I can understand the pushback from personal incredulity, it's the same incredulity that faced the likes of bisexuals a few decades back. You can find a ton of research on it with a quick google search. It is a demographic that exists.
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I'm sure the demographic exists. We usually call them "closeted" gay men or bisexuals, no?

To me it's just another example of someone "identifying" as something that they're not.
 
Darat said:
As I said above - your personal incredulity is understandable, but the demographic exists. As an example - some of these men will tell you that they don't find other men sexually attractive it is simply convenience, much the same way as I am sure most "straight" men don't find their right hand nor their fleshlight sexually attractive, both are merely convenient.
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That is precisely my point. The right hand guy might not identify as a masturbator. Yet it doesn't matter how he wants to reframe it. He is one who masturbates. He is, despite his identifications, a masturbater. Self stimulation, by definition, does not require a partner and no attraction to another factors in. To perform sexually with another man kinda does.

Sexuality is more complex than many people believe, or it seems are willing to believe.
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Yeah, and as I agreed upthread, I'm sure there are some people who have sex with someone they feel no sexual attraction to. But I'd be willing to bet my right hand that the vast majority of those SMSM dudes are simply uncomfortable with what they are and have a bad case of Egyptian River going on.
 
We're getting a little off topic here.

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What rights do gay people currently enjoy, that trans people do not? The right to free assembly? The right to free speech? The right to freedom from discrimination in housing, employment, and commerce? The right to freely have intimate relations with any willing partner?
 
As long as people insist on seeing sexuality as a state of being rather than behavior there will be confusion and upset. People are really invested in dividing things up into neat categories with clear boundaries, and if anyone doesn't fit into those categories they'll invent a new one.

This relates to transgenderism because of the drive to identify which category any given person belongs in. Here's Jo. Is Jo a man or a woman? Is Jo gay or straight? Is Jo cis or trans? Those who care about transgenderism the most are firmly in the lump-everyone-into-categories school: they just fight over which category to stick Jo into. Those who see sexuality as behavior aren't invested in categorization and view Jo as a person who sometimes does this, sometimes does that, likes to be called this, likes to get freaky with that. "But what is Jo?!" isn't an overriding concern because to them Jo isn't anything, Jo does certain things. Which may vary over time.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
I'm sure the demographic exists. We usually call them "closeted" gay men or bisexuals, no?
To me it's just another example of someone "identifying" as something that they're not.
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Nope. These are not closeted gay or bi men. Like I said from my reading and from my personal experience they are not attracted to males the same way a gay or bi man may be, and they are not homo-romantic orientated as a gay or bi man may be. It truly is something different.
 
arthwollipot said:
This thread is going well.
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Is that a surprise?

There is a contingent of Lesbians and Homesexuals are seeing a conflict between Trans rights and Gay rights. Some lesbians are upset at the self ID stuff letting trans women into female spaces. Some lesbians and some gays are concerned that gay children are being convinced that they aren't gay but trans instead.

I think these are legit concerns.
 
Darat said:
Or straight. The world is much messier than you think it is.

"Gay" and "bisexual" are often identities, not merely a label based on the sex of the person you have sex with.
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Straight men do not regularly **** other men. Unless they're prison rapists.
 
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