Fundamentalism and Children

[Beth]

Please, please, please put me back on your Ignore List.

As you wish.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

See, I think using "Just you wait until your father gets home!" is nasty and should be discouraged, so I think there is a wide gap between what you and I would consider abuse.

There could well be. I agree fully that "just you wait until your father gets home" is nasty and should be discouraged. But it is not abuse. Many things, I think, fall into the 'bad parenting but not really abuse' category.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

As you wish.

You really love him?

 

[qayak]

I have had several people tell me, or the list, that they think my idea is "creepy." I don't know their level of creeposity but I do know mine and I find the fact that a grown man believes these lies enough to interrupt his son's life and drag him to synagogue, is way beyond mere creepiness.

And the idea that one should be proud to defend such a person is also beyond creepy? I might think he has the right to say it but I don't think it is honourable for me to pretend he is right. It is also not honourable to pretend that his ideas are as good or better than my own.

I personally believe that anyone has the right to say that the Holocaust was a jewish conspiracy, but I am going to challenge what he says because that idea is not as good as other ideas about the Holocaust. It is in no way honourable for me to pretend to go along, or to step aside and allow him to influence others, but it is honourable to make as strong an opposing argument as I possibly can.

Now, being an atheist all my life has taken a fair amount of "screw you" attitude. Perhaps reformed believers don't have that and are just to damned used to bending over backwards for the silliness of others. Perhaps it is a survival technique they use to stop others from questioning their own lies.

But the fact of the matter is, everyone believes that their beliefs are the best or else they wouldn't have them. If I believed christianity had it right, I would be a christian and if I believed something else was better, I would believe that. I am an atheist because I believe it is a far better position to hold and I have the evidence to back it up. So, when someone says that religious indoctrination of children is okay or even preferable, I will put forth as strong and persistent an argument as I can because there is a far better way.

Imagine if, instead of dragging that boy off to synagogue, you took him to Science World, or The Royal Tyrell Museum of Paleantology or out for a walk in the woods where you could discover nature together, or down to the local harbour to learn how sailboats travel against the wind. Imagine if you did one of these every time he was supposed to be in synagogue. Imagine, if everything he knew was true, how great his life would be.

How creepy is that?

 

[qayak]

Question for Meadmaker:

What's so important in synagogue that other children must bear the brunt of Jesus Camp just so your son can attend? In other words: What would you give up so that Jesus Camp was never inficted upon another kid?

 

[articulett]

I would find any religion based on the idea that the child personally was the cause of all the evil in the world and not worthy to be kept alive abusive. It is hard for ideas themselves to be abusive, but there are lines that definitely cross into abuse. I think that would qualify.

The examples you gave? As to the devil planting dinosaur bones, no, I would not classify that as abuse. It's plenty dumb but not abusive.

If the kid was told that he was possessed and put under signficant bodily stress during an exorcism as a result and/or denied effective medical care, then, yes that is clearly abuse.

I was raised Catholic, and my parents didn't push it that hard, and I don't blame them and I believe they did the best they could on the subject. But the idea of Hell-- Eternal suffering caused me a lot of angst... and so did the notion that life was a test for one's eternity, but you weren't really supposed to ask questions about it-- just have "faith"-- I felt very bad about god killing his kid for me-- it's gruesome... a lot of stuff unnerved me, but all the adults seem to believe this stuff was true and no-one mocked it or anything, so I figured they must all know something-- and so I spent a lot of angst filled years worrying about how to ensure my eternity and afraid that I might have been born into or picked the wrong religion. Sure, this isn't every kids experience. Some are better; many are worse. But I hope fewer kids have these experiences. I think the truth or saying "I don't know" is much better than a lie... and the best way to raise honest children that society benefits from. Secular societies show greater societal function, and I understand why.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

I
And the idea that one should be proud to defend such a person is also beyond creepy? I might think he has the right to say it but I don't think it is honourable for me to pretend he is right. It is also not honourable to pretend that his ideas are as good or better than my own.

Correct. It is important to separate the right to a belief from the belief itself. Generally when people say that they will fight for someone's right to believe something they clearly make that distinction and will fight not for the belief necessarily but for a person's right to hold whatever belief they want.

Now, I can easily turn around and hit them full blast for believing whatever claptrap they say they believe in even though I think it important to defend their right to that belief.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

I was raised Catholic, and my parents didn't push it that hard, and I don't blame them and I believe they did the best they could on the subject. But the idea of Hell-- Eternal suffering caused me a lot of angst... and so did the notion that life was a test for one's eternity, but you weren't really supposed to ask questions about it-- just have "faith"-- I felt very bad about god killing his kid for me-- it's gruesome... a lot of stuff unnerved me, but all the adults seem to believe this stuff was true and no-one mocked it or anything, so I figured they must all know something-- and so I spent a lot of angst filled years worrying about how to ensure my eternity and afraid that I might have been born into or picked the wrong religion. Sure, this isn't every kids experience. Some are better; many are worse. But I hope fewer kids have these experiences. I think the truth or saying "I don't know" is much better than a lie... and the best way to raise honest children that society benefits from. Secular societies show greater societal function, and I understand why.

And I support your desire that fewer kids have those experiences. I simply draw the line at saying that this is abuse. It's wacko and it's non-productive. I don't think it's abuse.

I was raised Presbyterian. You couldn't pay me enough to make me attend another Presbyterian service. But life being the wacky thing it is I always seem to end up donating blood at the drives in the Presbyterian church on my way home.

 

[articulett]

In my own family, some of my relatives have been rather vocal about my decision not to raise my child with religion. I think they would have a tizzy fit if shared my similar opinions regarding their infliction of bible stories like plagues and even circumcision on them. The religious have come to expect and get deference--but they sure are not quiet about inflicting their opinions on others. They would silence me while bleating on and on to anyone who will listen and any child entrusted in their care--and feel extra special moral for doing so.

As for the term abuse-- it's an opinion word, and people don't agree. I don't care whether it's called abuse or not-- I just don't think it's good to promote the notion that faith is "special"-- or a means to truth.

I think our rational thinking minds are the greatest gifts we humans have evolved--and the ability to share actual knowledge with each other--not just manipulative stories passing as "divine truths". I think we've outgrown religion the way we've outgrown rain dances and virgin sacrifices and slavery--

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

In my own family, some of my relatives have been rather vocal about my decision not to raise my child with religion. I think they would have a tizzy fit if shared my similar opinions regarding their infliction of bible stories like plagues and even circumcision on them. The religious have come to expect and get deference--but they sure are not quiet about inflicting their opinions on others. They would silence me while bleating on and on to anyone who will listen and any child entrusted in their care--and feel extra special moral for doing so.

As for the term abuse-- it's an opinion word, and people don't agree. I don't care whether it's called abuse or not-- I just don't think it's good to promote the notion that faith is "special"-- or a means to truth.

I think our rational thinking minds are the greatest gifts we humans have--and the ability to share actual knowledge with eac hother--not just manipulative stories passing as "divine truths".

Yeah, well, I don't think they get any brownie points for humility, which I find infinitely amusing since they usually go on and on about how they are superior in their Christian humility.

Nietzsche pegged 'em spot on.

 

[Beth]

You really love him?

 

[Slimething]

Now, being an atheist all my life has taken a fair amount of "screw you" attitude. Perhaps reformed believers don't have that and are just to damned used to bending over backwards for the silliness of others. Perhaps it is a survival technique they use to stop others from questioning their own lies.

Well stated. I was raised catholic and had to suffer the persistent "you're going to hell" chorus from the family. They quit when they realized that threats that were delivered in loco deus had no effect on me. Once I studied up on religion, I was able to show them that their religion was not as pure as they thought it was.

So, I've learned to bite my tongue to preserve some peace. Except once: my family is a collection of tireless seekers. My older brother has of late tired of xianity and dabbled in other faiths, only to alight on islam for about two year. I was at a reunion where a tableful of xians (notably including our mom and sister) were all voicing dismay at his falling for the lies of islam. The man was being so maligned that I had to chirp up in my ever-endearing style. I pointed out to them the fact that the lies of islam arose from the lies of xianity so it was very easy to jump from one to the other. That pretty much stopped the conversation cold. I enjoyed their baleful glares the rest of the night.

 

[Meadmaker]

I personally believe that anyone has the right to say that the Holocaust was a jewish conspiracy, but I am going to challenge what he says because that idea is not as good as other ideas about the Holocaust.

Like the idea it was a Catholic conspiracy?

Now, being an atheist all my life has taken a fair amount of "screw you" attitude.

Oddly, I've known lifelong atheists without it. I think your attitude is yours, not dependent on the religious beliefs of you, or others. For several years, on and off, I went to Unitarian churches. The ministers of the two I attened fairly regularly were both lifelong atheists. I never heard or detected a "screw you" attitude. They spoke highly of the value of religious traditions, and I suspect they would not think highly of ticketing church-goers, even if they were exempted from the fines.

Imagine if, instead of dragging that boy off to synagogue, you took him to Science World, or The Royal Tyrell Museum of Paleantology or out for a walk in the woods where you could discover nature together, or down to the local harbour to learn how sailboats travel against the wind. Imagine if you did one of these every time he was supposed to be in synagogue. Imagine, if everything he knew was true, how great his life would be.

How creepy is that?

Grandma teaches him sailing. I don't know anything about it myself. I don't know much about the Royal Tyrell Museum, but will the Carnegie Museum do? We have memberships at both local science museums, but they aren't nearly as impressive as Carnegie, so we went to Pittsburgh to visit it. He wants to be a Forest Ranger when he grows up, probably because he has loved our camping vacations in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park.

You don't know very much about religion, I'm afraid. There's nothing they teach him, at synagogue or parochial school, that is contradicted by science. What do you suppose they teach him? They teach him evolution. They teach him that God exists. That's a question kind of beyond science. At school, they teach him that our tradition says God worked miracles to get his ancestors out of Egypt, but they also teach him that not everyone believes that. They don't really teach whether it's "true" or "false". At the synagogue, our rabbi teaches that those are old legends. Other rabbis would teach different things about those stories. I side with our rabbi.

I have a friend who was a lifelong atheist, until she fell in love with a Catholic. They're married. She can be downright preachy these days. It would be poetic justice if some of the people who say religion is child abuse had a child and that happened to her. Would you be telling her that she was abusing your grandchildren?

 

[articulett]

Well stated. I was raised catholic and had to suffer the persistent "you're going to hell" chorus from the family. They quit when they realized that threats that were delivered in loco deus had no effect on me. Once I studied up on religion, I was able to show them that their religion was not as pure as they thought it was.

So, I've learned to bite my tongue to preserve some peace. Except once: my family is a collection of tireless seekers. My older brother has of late tired of xianity and dabbled in other faiths, only to alight on islam for about two year. I was at a reunion where a tableful of xians (notably including our mom and sister) were all voicing dismay at his falling for the lies of islam. The man was being so maligned that I had to chirp up in my ever-endearing style. I pointed out to them the fact that the lies of islam arose from the lies of xianity so it was very easy to jump from one to the other. That pretty much stopped the conversation cold. I enjoyed their baleful glares the rest of the night.

Well it did work on me... caused me a lot of angst. And made me think that truth could be found through a feeling and faith. I understood why those girls could fall prey to someone like Manson. If faith is a good way to know "the truth"--then that means your goal in this life should be to find the truth that "feels" right and believe it to the extreme so that you can have a blissfu eternity and avoid the fate "worse than death". Once you stick the notion in a kids head that faith is good-- just like your brother illustrates-- you have given them no tools for separating one from another. Who needs evidence when you have faith. Facts become a "too of satan" or stuff spouted by "false prophets". And all of this stems from the idea that faith is good-- necessary for salvation-- an avenue of truth-- what god wants more than anything-- that life is a test. Those who don't take it seriously don't see it's harms as they call those who do take it seriously crazy-- and yet they prop up the paradigm that faith is good so that no one questions the one that they are inflicting... and so they all go unchecked.

Your Catholic mother had no more of a case that he Islamic son was believing lies than his counterclaim that it was she who had been fooled. And that's the way it is with all faith based notions and claims of divine truths. And that IS scary. If god sometimes talks to people, who are you to say he didn't tell GWB to start a war in Iraq or the Taliban to fly airplanes into the twin towers? Once you've allowed that he is beyond your comprehension but he exists you forfeit the right to say who is and isn't talking to in his magical invisible way.

I do hope that people quite inflicting their religions on children because they assume it's good or necessary or contains higher truths or leads to more moral choices. The evidence doesn't support any of that, and people really ought to think about the long term consequences of promoting the "faith is good" meme. When you protect your right to inflict that notion on your kids-- you protect others who would inflict Jesus Camp and such on theirs. I think it's very important to teach kids the difference between facts and "everything else"--including belief, faith, opinions, mottos, delusions, impressions, notions, etc. There are adults on this forum who cannot tell the difference between one and the other, and I do think the "faith is good" meme plays a role in this fuzzy thinking.

 

[Slimething]

You don't know very much about religion, I'm afraid.

There's nothing they teach him, at synagogue or parochial school, that is contradicted by science.

Then, why take him? Why not just do nature walks, go to planetaria, museums, etc? Of what use is a secular religous school? Not that I don't like it but stop wasting your time and money.

What do you suppose they teach him? They teach him evolution. They teach him that God exists.

Whoa! That last one is not in way consistent with science!

At school, they teach him that our tradition says God worked miracles to get his ancestors out of Egypt, but they also teach him that not everyone believes that. They don't really teach whether it's "true" or "false". At the synagogue, our rabbi teaches that those are old legends. Other rabbis would teach different things about those stories. I side with our rabbi.

So, what you are saying is that your kid at your synagogue is OK but others aren't. So much for your argument that religious indoctrination is not child abuse. I'll point out to you that, unless you sit in the classes, you know nothing about what they're teaching him. Next time you have him alone and in a calm mood, ask him what he thinks of xians, moslems, etc. Maybe they're teaching him more than you realize.

I have a friend who was a lifelong atheist, until she fell in love with a Catholic. They're married. She can be downright preachy these days. It would be poetic justice if some of the people who say religion is child abuse had a child and that happened to her. Would you be telling her that she was abusing your grandchildren?

Probably not because I have no grandchildren. If confronted, I may tell her what an intellectual hypocrite she is but, as usual, I would probably just shake my head and walk. (Sorry, qayak!)

 

[Meadmaker]

Question for Meadmaker:

What's so important in synagogue that other children must bear the brunt of Jesus Camp just so your son can attend? In other words: What would you give up so that Jesus Camp was never inficted upon another kid?

This isn't going to make me very popular, but then again, I'm not starting out very popular either.


My answer is, as you might suspect, nothing. I watched the movie, and it is kind of creepy, but I wasn't outraged. I disliked the camp enough that I was looking for some excuse to find something to use the force of law to ban it, and I found nothing. Even if I were inclined to interfere, I think the damage done to the family relationships by interfering would do worse damage than the camp itself.

I don't have any experience with a camp that was quite so intense as that one, but I had friends who had experiences of religious camps and retreats only a little bit shy of it. They told me about their experiences as we guzzled beer in High School. I think it's a lot harder to brainwash a kid than it looks.

 

[Meadmaker]

Next time you have him alone and in a calm mood, ask him what he thinks of xians, moslems, etc. Maybe they're teaching him more than you realize.

What makes you think I don't do that? For a hobby, I yak about religion with strangers. You think I don't do that with my son?

 

[articulett]

I am always curious when I hear about supposed atheists that switch. What sort of atheist were they--or were they just "unchurched"-- hadn't thought about it. Because I thought long and hard, and imagining someone going in the opposite direction would truly be like imagining myself believing in Santa again. I understand hopping from one faith to another-- after all, if faith is a means to truth or necessary for salvation-- then you ought to sample a few-- and deeply... if "degree of faith" counts to his invisible almightiness as his assorted scriptures seem to dictate. Having "faith" is the supposed key to all kinds of glories according to all sorts of dogmas and woo and not having it can lead to all sorts of bad things-- even eternal suffering.

But I can't imagine someone whose actually thought about this-- realized what a blind and nonsensical and manipulative path "faith" is-- I can't imagine them actually being able to make themselves believe again. It smacks of dementia or brain damage. I hear of such people... but I never get an actual explanation of what made them call themselves an atheist in the first place (and did anyone else know they referred to themselves as such at the time?) and what in the world counted as evidence for whatever specific faith they found themselves immersed in the second time? If it was my kid, I'd be very curious as to the answers to those questions as well as understanding what sort of benefit he believes his child would get from indoctrination. Moreover, he'd damn well know that he'd better not expect me to "play along". I can't imagine having a kid who would threaten any child with hell or who would claim access to divine knowledge. Maybe an unchurched kid just picking up the "faith is good" meme from society-- but not a kid who discussed it and thought about it and understood how no could actually know what if anything happens to consciousness after death-- I don't speak up when my sister plops her kids in front of bible cartoons showing plagues and god testing Abraham by asking him to kill his kid-- but my stomach turns. I don't know what to say or what my goal should be--but if the kids ever want to talk about it, they will hear an adult mocking that stuff-- because I think it's crazy, creepy, scary crap and wrong to pretend that it's deep higher truths that have hidden special meaning.

But even some non-religious people on a skeptics forum are highly sensitive to such religious scrutiny-- I can't imagine a positive reaction from religious folks for me or their kids if I were to speak up... that's why I like general consciousness raising--creating a society where we are free to query faith? I want to be free to ask, "why do you think it's good to show your kids these cartoons?"-- "what lessons do you think they are getting?"-- "do you think that faith is a good way to know truth--and if so, how do you distinguish one faith from another?" etc. But the tiniest prodding of faith brings out a flurry of protectors of "faith"-- though they never tell us what the hell faith is good for (we're just supposed to assume it's good like they have, I guess.)

 

[articulett]

I think it's a lot harder to brainwash a kid than it looks.

It only takes one George Bush... one Pope... one Osama Bin Laden... one Fred Phelps to inflict a LOT of human suffering because of "faith". If your kid believes faith is a good way to know truths and that the creator of the universe has chosen some earthly dudes to spread his word-- you have made your kid vulnerable to anyone who can convince him that they are one of the "chosen"-- or even moreso-- if they can convince him he is. You do the rest of us no favors by propping of such a notion.

 

[articulett]

What makes you think I don't do that? For a hobby, I yak about religion with strangers. You think I don't do that with my son?

So what does he think about their truths as opposed to his truths? Does he think they are mistaken while he was born into the "chosen religion"? Does he believe that an invisible entity cares what he "believes"? Does he think faith is special and good-- particularly his faith? Does he think it must be true since dad endorses it? Or do you let him know it's more about culture and heritage. Does he like it? Does he want to go? Why make him go? How is he better because of it? What are you afraid will happen if you neglect his religious education? Why is his education so important that you would gladly cover for Jesus camp and tell those kiddies to tough it out so that no one could keep you from your important indoctrination?

I don't find "Jesus Camp" to be "no big deal"-- nor many of the lies, misinformation, bigotry, and anti-science proffered as "higher truths". I think it makes people ignorant, self-important, and dishonest because they think it wins them brownie points for the invisible guy. I would imagine most parents would be willing to withstand some scrutiny to avoid the infliction of religious abuses (or harmful practices or threats or lies passed off as higher truths that must be believed) on other trusting children. But perhaps not. I would think all skeptics would be interested in raising consciousness or discussing this issue without making bad guys our of those who find such practices "abusive" or "wrong" or "harmful" or "lies" or "bigoted" or "ignorance promoting" or "fine worthy". The practices themselves surely cause more harm than the above words--and there are no good words one can use to discuss the issue with apologists and the those taught to defend their faith at all costs. Children are "others"-- do parents have a right to inflict any belief or lie or threat upon their child? If you don't want them inflicting it on you or your kid-- why would you endorse their "right" to do it to their own? By the same argument, shouldn't they decide about bike helmets and vaccinations and schooling and safety seats and child labor instead of the government?