From Rapture Ready

[Hokulele]

Why do they need to be consistent, whatever that means, in the way they worship? The fact that they all worship is what matters, how they do it matters little.

Let's try an analogy here. Cooking is known in all cultures. Were people made to cook? I would argue they aren't. People need to eat (although I would state that they evolved with this need, they weren't made with it), but that doesn't require cooking of the food. For various health and taste reasons, cooking became popular and was disseminated to future generations. I can see why cooking is beneficial to human existence, and yet, it isn't a necessary facet of human existence.

Similarly, I can see why worship would be beneficial to a social animal. That doesn't mean it is a necessary facet of such social animals.

No, you choose to not believe in God through reasoning. You don't choose to dislike bananas at first, it's whatever your genetics has given you in terms of taste buds.

There is quite a bit of evidence that religion may have a physical element. (Look up neurotheology.) In which case, it is quite possible that my disbelief in god is more similar to my dislike of bananas than you will ever admit.

However, you can be made to like thinks you dislike if you eat them enough.

Which isn't a choice to like something, but a learned behavior. And no, eating bananas enough would make me ill, it would not make me like them.

You lack of belief in God isn't some natural genetic trait, it's a willful choice of reasoning.

How do you know this?

Yes actually, you can be said to worship those things.

Ok. I guess we are operating under a very different set of definitions then.

I don't see how this is meaningful to the discussion, other than as veiled personal attack.

But you wouldn't do that because your a logical reasoning human being. Not filled with emotion and lack of reason.

Personal attack? Not in the least. I enjoyed Tillich's Dynamics of Faith when I first read it many years ago, and I enjoyed it almost as much the last time I re-read it. He makes a much better argument for your concept of worship than you are. I would recommend reading it.

And the accusation of a personal attack sounds a bit hypocritical coming from someone who has already suggested I see a psychologist in this very thread.

 

[Mr Clingford]

I will say that even a hetero like me can understand why many men feel the same towards Carmen.




Agreed. However, I usually operate under the assumption that everyone deserves respect until they fail to retain it, rather than assuming no one deserves respect until they earn it. Life is less complicated that way.




Yes, I do know that it was an analogy, but my main point was the entire concept of a god of creation requiring worship is setting up an hierarchy of values that has disturbing implications. Why not worship everything?

Good point with the second para - it is a good default.

I see it as the strength of one's response that comes naturally; one will be in awe (especially of Redwoods - cf avatar) of nature, but as God is the Platonic Form of all, one will naturally feel most awe with God.

Now I'm off to church, so I wonder how well worship will come to me this morning. Of course, one might say that something as amazing as the ultimate Platonic Form, God, deserves God in that way.

 

[slingblade]

God could have limited his view of the future in certain aspects because he didn't want to completely control the outcome of our choices. I don't know if this is true or not though.

Well, see, now here's the problem with everything you've been posting.

You have just had to make excuses for why certain things about god don't really work, especially if other postulates about god are also true.

You don't seem to realize you could accept this as clear evidence that, at the very least, some of the notions within the God Idea simply don't add up. Instead, you make up a reason to fit the disparate notions and then weasel a bit by saying you don't know if it's true.

Realistically? You don't know if any of it's true. And yet you feel confident enough, somehow, that you try to scare us with it, with dire warnings of the rude awakenings we're going to someday have.

You call "worship me or I'll torture you for eternity" a choice. Kind of like "Tell me I'm good-looking or I'll cut your kid's throat" is a choice, yeah? Only worse, with that whole "eternity" thing going on.

Yet you say everything is part of God's plan, so really, if I don't believe in god, then...well, that's just part of his plan, yeah? I mean, who knows? If I did start believing in him again, it might screw everything up so bad that God might...I dunno, have to go kill a bunch of rhinos or a Scientologist to make it all balance out again.

You know, I think maybe you better use your free will to decide to stop lecturing all of us, lest one of us change his or her mind, and you muck up God's plan for us all. Don't you?

 

[six7s]

Even if I had undeniable proof there would still be people who ignored that proof.

Although this inane banter might pass for discussion in your deluded world, it is really, really boring...

Face it: you don't have any proof that would convince anyone capable of thinking

Please stop playing word games. Everyone has beliefs.

At least try to read what I wrote rather than what you want/need to see

I said "in the context of such discussions, I prefer to think rather than believe in anything"

Yes, the Bible would agree with this. Men are fools, especially supposed wise men who reason that there is no God.

FAIL

Again, stop trying to twist things to suit your perverted agenda

I am not 'reasoning that there is no God'

Instead, I contend that:

• it is reasonable to think that all of the evidence for gods is bunk
• the benefits of belief in gods are negligible

You cannot tell me that you doubt everything. If you were not certain of anything I would doubt your sanity.

I doubt you could recognise sanity if it jumped up and bit your arse

 

[AWPrime]

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.

Even the iron chariots?

As for God creating evil. God gave us free will. Free will can lead to evil because not doing God's will is evil.

How can any desicion not be gods will as it was planned by him?

What is the point in creating people to worship you if they won't do it willingly? The only way to have them do it willingly is to give them free will. hence we all have a choice.

What kind a pathetic god needs worship?

 

[six7s]

Even the iron chariots?

How can any desicion not be gods will as it was planned by him?

What kind a pathetic god needs worship?

For one, see the jealous, paranoid, petty, spiteful, nasty, god of the Judeao Christian whackjobs:

www.biblegateway.com Exodus 20:5 (King James Version)

⁵Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

 

[Kernel Hapablap]

This thread is so far off the Original Post it's not even funny.

Look at it this way. Jesus did all sorts of miracles and people still wouldn't follow him. Go all the way back to the OT and the Jewish people. Various leaders performed miracles from God yet the people still continued to ignore God.

You are assuming that those miracles that Jesus did actually happened. If you want to be a critical thinker, try avoiding unsubstantiated claims.


"Even if I had undeniable proof there would still be people who ignored that proof."

You do not have undeniable proof, so you cannot make this claim. You cannot presume to know what people will or will not accept. Science has a way of changing its tune when the evidence presents itself, even if it is against the consensus. A recent example is the paradigm shift to the understanding that ulcers are caused by bacteria.

"I already said that statistically, the probability that all the universal constants are exactly where they are to produce life is staggering. That is as close as one can get to scientifically putting into question atheism. "

First of all, you do not have enough scientific knowledge to make such a claim. It's possible that there is only one possible configuration for said constants. Secondly, string theory posits that there are millions upon millions of possible universes. Maybe they all exist, and most of them are empty of life. We just happen to be one that's not.

"In the end you have beliefs that are not based on reason and logic, but on feelings. I think it's something that too many skeptics ignore. You aren't robots, you are human beings and for all your talk of reason and logic you are tied to your emotions and feelings just like everyone else."

This is very true. There is nothing wrong with making emotional decisions. This is not the same as accepting God on faith. Skeptics and critical thinkers allow for examination of said emotional decisions, and the willingness to admit they are wrong in the face of contradictory evidence.

"Yes, the Bible would agree with this. Men are fools, especially supposed wise men who reason that there is no God."

Or maybe the people who wrote the bible are trying to get you to avoid listening to the wise men, so you will continue to follow like sheep to the slaughter.

"So what does this say about militant atheists like dawkins and dennet?"

They are much, much smarter than you.

"You cannot tell me that you doubt everything. If you were not certain of anything I would doubt your sanity."

Of course everything is in doubt, except our own existence. There is no proof of an empirical world beyond our minds, philosophically speaking. However, if we allow for the single assumption that there is a "real" world, and a "real" universe, remarkable laws and logic can be found therein. Hundreds of years of simple observation and experimentation have led to incredible, almost magical discoveries and inventions. I'm sure if you showed your computer the the the Jews of the OT, they would think it from God.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

God is so beyond any of our comprehension that to argue that he is evil based on what little we know is foolishness.

To me this sounds like:
"God is so beyond any of our comprehension, and especially beyond yours ..."

In any case, what is so beyond our comprehension? A string of letters?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Even if I had undeniable proof there would still be people who ignored that proof.

Obviously true.

After all, that proof would be for something that is beyond our comprehension. So far beyond our comprehension in fact, that we wouldn't know that proof if we saw it.

I wonder if we even could conclude that anybody who claims some sort of understanding must be wrong.

I already said that statistically, the probability that all the universal constants are exactly where they are to produce life is staggering.

Not to talk about the probability that "God" is exactly in such a way that it would make all those universal constants so that they in turn would allow for whatever. "Staggering" doesn't even come close.

 

[Monster Machine]

What is the point in creating people to worship you if they won't do it willingly? The only way to have them do it willingly is to give them free will. hence we all have a choice.

What is the choice we are given?

You will either worship me or burn in hell.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me, does it?

Monster

 

[Ladewig]

If you really think that God is so evil, because he allows suffering, why would he come in the flesh and take upon himself all the sin of humanity, throughout past, present, and future?

I, personally, don't think God is evil because He allows suffering. I think He is evil because he prescribes an eternal punishment for a finite crime. Furthermore, His list of crimes includes activities that harm no others and includes thought crimes.

As for why He would "come in the flesh and take upon himself all the sin of humanity," my response is so what. You say it as if it were some kind of great sacrifice for an omnipotent, eternal being to spend a three-day weekend in hell; it's not.

 

[Ladewig]

What is the choice we are given?

You will either worship me or burn in hell.

You forgot the other part. The part where God says the fact that I am giving you this specific choice is proof positive that I love you beyond all understanding.

 

[GeeMack]

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs [...]

Now you're beginning to understand. Keep at it and you may eventually realize why clear headed, rational people think it's ridiculous to hold beliefs which are impossible to substantiate.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Demon Haunted World helped me tremendously.

Demon Haunted World is one of my favorites. I also recommend The Varieties of Scientific Experience. It's a transcript from a series of lectures Sagan gave at the University of Glasgow.

And where in the South did you grow up? My wife and I grew up near Chicago but we've lived near Greenville, SC for the past thirteen years.

 

[Foster Zygote]

First off, if you read the Bible...

What if I read the Bhagavad Gita, Koran, or Dianetics?

 

[joobz]

I'm sorry but you are a fool if you honestly believe there isn't a God. You are going to get a rude awakening someday.

You say this, but then you say god's effect is indistinguishable from statistical noise..

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs because you can always cry statistical probability religion shouldn't be discussed on this forum period.

Do you think it foolish to use statistically reliable evidence to form conclusions? Would you prefer medicine to take things on faith?

 

[tsig]

I don't think any of us knows that answer. God hasn't deemed it necessary to give us the answer either.

If you can't deal with that, then so be it, but don't assume that God is evil because he allows evil. If God created everything that exists, seen and unseen, then can you honestly believe that you have some moral superiority to God?

Without a doubt for I, tsig, do punish the guilty and not the innocent. And I have never tortured and killed my own son because someone else offended me.

 

[JetLeg]

I am still recovering from 2 sergeries so getting out again is a slow process but I am working on it. My body is just not able to go and do like it use to. I also think there are others ways to serve God besides doing things that take physical stamina. Sharing the truth with others every chance I get is one way I believe I am serving God, afterall isn't it the truth that sets a person free?

There you go, an explanation why KK is here.

Trolling for Jesus.

 

[tsig]

I'm sorry but you are a fool if you honestly believe there isn't a God. You are going to get a rude awakening someday.

Could you put a bit more relish on that gloat?

 

[tsig]

You seem to have a very unnaturally high opinion of yourself. I think you should get that checked out by a registered psychiatrist.

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.

As for God creating evil. God gave us free will. Free will can lead to evil because not doing God's will is evil.

What is the point in creating people to worship you if they won't do it willingly? The only way to have them do it willingly is to give them free will. hence we all have a choice.

Yes just what is the point of creating people to worship you? Sounds like god has a bit of a self-image problem because those who are confident do not need constant reinforcement by anyone let alone a whole universe.