From Rapture Ready

[hamelekim]

Yes, this certainly sounds hugely anthropomorphic and egotistical - personally I find the idea of 'Think of something you find amazing and mind-blowing, doesn't your jaw just drop and you are in awe of it? Perhaps God is the epitome of all of these things (like Plato's Forms) and worshipping God is like that?' I hope so, or the afterlife would be dreadfully boring. God as a combination of the sexiest car and woman and tree (as I like them) possible.

The Bible specifically says,

Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.​

I think that says it all. We won't be spending eternity floating on clouds and playing harps, nor will we be stuck in heaven without physical bodies. The Bible is very clear that we will be physical and in the physical universe.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Do you use modern, up-to-date versions of the Bible, as they are easier to understand and are more accurate?

I think I secretly worship Carmen Electra.

You are right, with regard to 1 Corinthians 15 and the end of Revelation, that the afterlife not disembodied souls floating around. Someone here on JREF pointed out that the New Jerusalem in Revelation sounds suspiciously like the Borg Cube....

 

[Hokulele]

Yes, this certainly sounds hugely anthropomorphic and egotistical - personally I find the idea of 'Think of something you find amazing and mind-blowing, doesn't your jaw just drop and you are in awe of it? Perhaps God is the epitome of all of these things (like Plato's Forms) and worshipping God is like that?' I hope so, or the afterlife would be dreadfully boring. God as a combination of the sexiest car and woman and tree (as I like them) possible.

I like your argument better than hamelekim's, but personally, I wouldn't call enjoying or appreciating something "worshipping".

If he is the beginning and end, and knows everything that everyone will ever do then he has to know what is going to happen, unless he willingly chooses to limit his view of the future in certain regards.

He might do this in order to give us true free will. Otherwise the very act of creation is setting into motion specific events that will create an outcome that he knows will occur.

I don't think there is enough information given in the Bible, at least from what I have read to specifically answer this question.

It's also possible that he knows what is going to happen but is still repentant that things had to be the way they are.

Which is a bit odd, since he is constantly meddling with things over fairly trivial issues. Either way, it now sounds like you are arguing against an omnipotent god.

Human beings are made to worship. We choose to worship many things, from nature to people to gods. We all get a certain way when around celebrities or people we look up to who are famous.

Ick, no. People are conditioned to worship, not made. Admiration is certainly not the same thing as worship.

take that feeling and multiply it by infinity when in the presence of God. I think that God deserves worship. It is our choice whether we want to worship him, but we all worship something, whether you want to admit it or not.

Not really. I do not think that belief is a conscious choice. It is impossible to worship something I do not believe to exist. Hence, my lack of worship isn't a conscious choice.

I really can't think of anything I worship, as that implies something I could never find fault with. Trust me, I can find fault with pretty much anything. Including myself.

I wouldn't say that God has an unnaturally high opinion of himself, after all, he created all of existence, what has humanity done of late to merit worship?

Created god.

 

[six7s]

I'm sorry but you are a fool if you honestly believe there isn't a God. You are going to get a rude awakening someday.

This is forums.randi.org:

​

Please note the byline

If you want to promote your beliefs without substantiating them, you are in the wrong place

 

[hamelekim]

Do you use modern, up-to-date versions of the Bible, as they are easier to understand and are more accurate?

I think I secretly worship Carmen Electra.

You are right, with regard to 1 Corinthians 15 and the end of Revelation, that the afterlife not disembodied souls floating around. Someone here on JREF pointed out that the New Jerusalem in Revelation sounds suspiciously like the Borg Cube....

I enjoy the poetry of the King James version, but I do find it difficult to understand sometimes. Of course some of the modern translations are really bastardizations of the original meaning, so I tend to stick with the KJ version and muddle through the difficult language.

I've actually heard an argument by an author that new Jerusalem is actually a giant pyramid. It's a rather interesting argument, although I don't remember who the author was.

 

[Mr Clingford]

I like your argument better than hamelkim's, but personally, I wouldn't call enjoying or appreciating something "worshipping".


I really can't think of anything I worship, as that implies something I could never find fault with. Trust me, I can find fault with pretty much anything. Including myself.

Come on, you're ignoring Carmen Electra!

Seriously, I think worshipping involves ideas of being caught up in the flabbergasting amazingness of something, only more so.

 

[hamelekim]

This is forums.randi.org:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/images/header/jrefheadertext.gif[/qimg]
​

Please note the byline

If you want to promote your beliefs without substantiating them, you are in the wrong place

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs because you can always cry statistical probability religion shouldn't be discussed on this forum period.

Hence religion always comes down to personal experience which goes against scientific reasoning which will always put at odds the skeptic and true believer.

Secondly, I was taking liberties with a quote from the Bible that says the fool hath said in his heart there is no God. It's what God says, and if you take that personally, well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at what you believe.

 

[Hokulele]

Come on, you're ignoring Carmen Electra!

Meh. Now if you had said Colin Firth...

Seriously, I think worshipping involves ideas of being caught up in the flabbergasting amazingness of something, only more so.

If you define worshipping that way, then sure, there are plenty of things I have seen worth worshipping. In fact, everything is flabbergastingly amazing. Even ants, or solar panels, or poop. The main problem I have with most common uses of "worship" is that it implies that most stuff isn't flabbergastingly amazing. After all, very few people claim to worship solar panels. Or poop.

 

[Mr Clingford]

I enjoy the poetry of the King James version, but I do find it difficult to understand sometimes. Of course some of the modern translations are really bastardizations of the original meaning, so I tend to stick with the KJ version and muddle through the difficult language.

But now we benefit from almost 400 years of discoveries of new manuscripts so modern versions are more accurate.

I've actually heard an argument by an author that new Jerusalem is actually a giant pyramid. It's a rather interesting argument, although I don't remember who the author was.

Aha, so the Israelites built the pyramids after all! Revelation 22 has all the imagery; interestingly, the main street is paved with gold.

 

[six7s]

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs because you can always cry statistical probability religion shouldn't be discussed on this forum period.

This is absolute bollocks, and you know it

Stop dodging and lying for your woo and at least try to have an honest discussion

well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at what you believe.

In the context of such discussions, I prefer to think rather than believe in anything - belief implies unthinking acceptance of nebulous concepts

ETA
As you seem taken with quotes on fools...

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1



The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)
​

 

[Mashuna]

Considering it is impossible to substantiate religious beliefs because you can always cry statistical probability religion shouldn't be discussed on this forum period.

Hence religion always comes down to personal experience which goes against scientific reasoning which will always put at odds the skeptic and true believer.

Secondly, I was taking liberties with a quote from the Bible that says the fool hath said in his heart there is no God. It's what God says, and if you take that personally, well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at what you believe.

The Bible says that the fool hath said in his heart that circular reasoning is convincing. It's what God says, and if you take that personally, well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at yourself.

 

[hamelekim]

I like your argument better than hamelekim's, but personally, I wouldn't call enjoying or appreciating something "worshipping".

Depends on what your definition of worship is.

Which is a bit odd, since he is constantly meddling with things over fairly trivial issues. Either way, it now sounds like you are arguing against an omnipotent god.

Nope, I'm not. I'm just speculating on possibilities. After all God limited himself when he came down in the flesh. Jesus said that only the father knows when the Son will return. Jesus choose not to know the time when he was on earth.

This leads me to believe that God can choose to not know things if he wants.

Ick, no. People are conditioned to worship, not made. Admiration is certainly not the same thing as worship.

What proof do you have that people are conditioned to worship vs made that way?

Obviously people have a need that is filled by worshiping others, be it personal heroes, celebrities, etc... I don't think they are conditioned by society to do so. I know that I don't worship any human, although I look up to some people. But even I get a strange feeling of awe when I see a celebrity in person. It's an odd feeling and it has nothing to do with any social conditioning.

I'm sure there is likely a scientific paper somewhere on the subject.

Not really. I do not think that belief is a conscious choice. It is impossible to worship something I do not believe to exist. Hence, my lack of worship isn't a conscious choice.

You choose not to believe. Playing with words will not make you correct. You made a conscious choice not to believe in God and therefore choose not to worship God.

I really can't think of anything I worship, as that implies something I could never find fault with. Trust me, I can find fault with pretty much anything. Including myself.

What does worship involve? Are you arguing that you are not devoted to anything? I am not talking about conscious worship of some thing, like prayers.

Anything that you spend a great deal of time and energy doing can be seen as worship.

Created god.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Meh. Now if you had said Colin Firth...

Point taken - even for a hetero like me I can see the attraction.

If you define worshipping that way, then sure, there are plenty of things I have seen worth worshipping. In fact, everything is flabbergastingly amazing. Even ants, or solar panels, or poop. The main problem I have with most common uses of "worship" is that implies that most stuff isn't flabbergastingly amazing. After all, very few people claim to worship solar panels. Or poop.

Thinking about it, I find the meaning of worship as 'paying homage, due respect' to a higher authority doesn't work well for me, and I even like our Queen! There is the feeling of 'I'm not bowing to someone else, why should I, they don't deserve it'. This would be especially strong if you find some people's conception of God to be morally despicable.

The world around us is truly amazing but I was using it as an analogy, really, and you know it!

 

[hamelekim]

But now we benefit from almost 400 years of discoveries of new manuscripts so modern versions are more accurate.

Aha, so the Israelites built the pyramids after all! Revelation 22 has all the imagery; interestingly, the main street is paved with gold.

Or are they? The Devil tries to confuse believers, and modifying the Bible would be a very good way to do this. If these manuscripts go against something already in the Bible I would be suspicious of it.

 

[hamelekim]

The Bible says that the fool hath said in his heart that circular reasoning is convincing. It's what God says, and if you take that personally, well maybe you need to take a hard honest look at yourself.

It's not circular reasoning to say that you are a fool for believing that there is no God.

It is self evident that there was a creator. The statistical probabilities for the various laws of physics are so staggering to begin with that alone should make you question the idea that there is no God.

It's more comforting to believe there isn't a God than to have to come to the conclusion that there is, and that your behavior has consequences.

 

[Hokulele]

What proof do you have that people are conditioned to worship vs made that way?

The wide variety of things/concepts people worship, the variety in the amount of worship generated (including none at all), and the variety in ways of expressing that worship. If people were made to worship, you would think they would be a little more consistent about it.

Obviously people have a need that is filled by worshiping others, be it personal heroes, celebrities, etc... I don't think they are conditioned by society to do so. I know that I don't worship any human, although I look up to some people. But even I get a strange feeling of awe when I see a celebrity in person. It's an odd feeling and it has nothing to do with any social conditioning.

Sure it is, not all cultures have an emphasis on the cult of personality. In fact, the manner in which you describe your "awe" at seeing a celebrity demonstrates how easy it is to cultivate such a feeling.

You choose not to believe. Playing with words will not make you correct. You made a conscious choice not to believe in God and therefore choose not to worship God.

I no more chose not to believe in god than I chose not to like eating bananas.

What does worship involve? Are you arguing that you are not devoted to anything? I am not talking about conscious worship of some thing, like prayers.

Anything that you spend a great deal of time and energy doing can be seen as worship.

Really? So I worship sleeping? Cooking dinner? Odd, but if that's the way you want to define it...

By the way, Paul Tillich tackled this much more elegantly and logically years ago.

 

[Mr Clingford]

Or are they? The Devil tries to confuse believers, and modifying the Bible would be a very good way to do this. If these manuscripts go against something already in the Bible I would be suspicious of it.

What do you mean by 'already in the Bible'? The original Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic? That which is found in the Codex Sinaiticus? It's great that we nicked that Bible from that monastery because it is in the British Library so I showed it to my partner last year. The Bible is rather a complicated thing, though, consisting of translations of various documents, with differing Xtianities differing on which books should be in it.

 

[hamelekim]

This is absolute bollocks, and you know it

Stop dodging and lying for your woo and at least try to have an honest discussion

Look at it this way. Jesus did all sorts of miracles and people still wouldn't follow him. Go all the way back to the OT and the Jewish people. Various leaders performed miracles from God yet the people still continued to ignore God.

Even if I had undeniable proof there would still be people who ignored that proof.

I already said that statistically, the probability that all the universal constants are exactly where they are to produce life is staggering. That is as close as one can get to scientifically putting into question atheism.

In the context of such discussions, I prefer to think rather than believe in anything - belief implies unthinking acceptance of nebulous concepts

Please stop playing word games. Everyone has beliefs. Are you an economic conservative or liberal? Do you support unions or do you not? If you are truly a thinker than you should have worked out already what works and does not work economically and socially.

In the end you have beliefs that are not based on reason and logic, but on feelings. I think it's something that too many skeptics ignore. You aren't robots, you are human beings and for all your talk of reason and logic you are tied to your emotions and feelings just like everyone else.

ETA
As you seem taken with quotes on fools...

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1

​

Yes, the Bible would agree with this. Men are fools, especially supposed wise men who reason that there is no God.

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

So what does this say about militant atheists like dawkins and dennet?

You cannot tell me that you doubt everything. If you were not certain of anything I would doubt your sanity.

 

[Hokulele]

Point taken - even for a hetero like me I can see the attraction.

I will say that even a hetero like me can understand why many men feel the same towards Carmen.

Thinking about it, I find the meaning of worship as 'paying homage, due respect' to a higher authority doesn't work well for me, and I even like our Queen! There is the feeling of 'I'm not bowing to someone else, why should I, they don't deserve it'. This would be especially strong if you find some people's conception of God to be morally despicable.

Agreed. However, I usually operate under the assumption that everyone deserves respect until they fail to retain it, rather than assuming no one deserves respect until they earn it. Life is less complicated that way.

The world around us is truly amazing but I was using it as an analogy, really, and you know it!

Yes, I do know that it was an analogy, but my main point was the entire concept of a god of creation requiring worship is setting up an hierarchy of values that has disturbing implications. Why not worship everything?

 

[hamelekim]

The wide variety of things/concepts people worship, the variety in the amount of worship generated (including none at all), and the variety in ways of expressing that worship. If people were made to worship, you would think they would be a little more consistent about it.

Why do they need to be consistent, whatever that means, in the way they worship? The fact that they all worship is what matters, how they do it matters little.

Sure it is, not all cultures have an emphasis on the cult of personality. In fact, the manner in which you describe your "awe" at seeing a celebrity demonstrates how easy it is to cultivate such a feeling.

I no more chose not to believe in god than I chose not to like eating bananas.

No, you choose to not believe in God through reasoning. You don't choose to dislike bananas at first, it's whatever your genetics has given you in terms of taste buds.

However, you can be made to like thinks you dislike if you eat them enough.

You lack of belief in God isn't some natural genetic trait, it's a willful choice of reasoning.

Really? So I worship sleeping? Cooking dinner? Odd, but if that's the way you want to define it...

Yes actually, you can be said to worship those things.

By the way, Paul Tillich tackled this much more elegantly and logically years ago.

I don't see how this is meaningful to the discussion, other than as veiled personal attack.

But you wouldn't do that because your a logical reasoning human being. Not filled with emotion and lack of reason.