From Rapture Ready

[Ralph]

What I want to know is this: when the day of Rapture arrives and all the good Christian folk fly away up to heaven, will they wave down to us or will they act all self-important and try to pretend that they can't see us on the ground waving up to them? A bit like the people sitting in first class on trains - they never wave back either.

This seems to be a fairly common topic over there. Not so much concern about what happens to truly evil people (like atheists,liberals,homos,catholics,mormons,evilutionists,buddhists,etc etc) but over people they know & love.

Friends-bothers-sisters-parents---maybe even their own children. There's a certain amount of guilt involved here---a feeling of "can we really enjoy the fruits of heaven knowing that someone that was so dear to us----is spending the week in a vat of boiling excrement".

Not to worry though....there seemsto be several interesting "solutions" to this bit of unpleasantness.

As always--a bible quote works best. "There are no tears in heaven" is often brought up.....something jesus said. It's not really explained---but it's usually interpretted as "don't worry--god'll fix things so you're just happy and not bothered by this.

Sounds like god's going to perform some lobotomys or possibly be administering large doses of
anti-psychotics.

Another theory is once you get to heaven--you'll simply understand "divine justice" and it'll seem perfectly reasonable why your 17 year old son who was killed in a car accident and maybe just wasn't around long enough to get "saved" is roasting in hell while you're living the good life.

My own favorite though was the "Newhart Dream Sequence" explanation. This involves the fact that everybody you knew in your life that's not going to heaven.....never really existed. They were just placedthere by god as test for those that god had chosen to be saved.

If guilt & fear were money--these people would all be billionaires...............

 

[Foster Zygote]

Thanks for reading.

Thanks for sharing, and welcome.

I can relate to your experiences. I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. My parents listened to James Dobson on the radio and watched The 700 Club. I was told that the theory of evolution by natural selection was a Satanic lie. And even though I knew that I was supposed to feel excited about it, I was frightened of the prospect of the Rapture, especially considering that I was told that it would almost certainly happen in my lifetime, probably in a mere few years. For one thing I worried that I would be too sinful to pass muster. "You were left behind because you wouldn't stop touching yourself you filthy little sinner" Jesus would say. And anyway, I was horrified at the prospect that so many of my friends and relatives, whom I knew to be good, caring people, would be judged unworthy of God's mercy and sent to Hell for all eternity.

But I had always been interested in science. My enthusiasm for astronomy led me to read Carl Sagan's Cosmos. I enjoyed it so much that I wanted to read his other books. I happened upon Broca's Brain and was suddenly immersed in the simple beauty of science. The wonders revealed by science were so much more enthralling than the "wonders" that religion had indoctrinated me to believe. The universe suddenly became mysterious beyond my comprehension. I saw that my religious teachers, well meaning as they were, relied on pretend certainty in an imaginary universe. But I came to see that uncertainty was not something to fear and mask, but rather something to revel in. No matter how wonderful the discoveries that are made, there will still be greater questions for us to seek the answers to.

And you'll get over your fear. Soon you'll realize that you're still the same person and that the things that you really love and care about are the same as ever. It's much more refreshing to see the world as something we should work to better, rather than something wicked that needs to be destroyed. And you'll be free to accept people whom you would otherwise be expected to be critical of.

 

[LisaLynn]

Thanks Chaos, Crikey,Moochie, and everyone for the warm welcome !

My family usually calls me Lisa, but either is fine.

 

[LisaLynn]

This seems to be a fairly common topic over there. Not so much concern about what happens to truly evil people (like atheists,liberals,homos,catholics,mormons,evilutionists,buddhists,etc etc) but over people they know & love.

Friends-bothers-sisters-parents---maybe even their own children. There's a certain amount of guilt involved here---a feeling of "can we really enjoy the fruits of heaven knowing that someone that was so dear to us----is spending the week in a vat of boiling excrement".

Not to worry though....there seemsto be several interesting "solutions" to this bit of unpleasantness.

As always--a bible quote works best. "There are no tears in heaven" is often brought up.....something jesus said. It's not really explained---but it's usually interpretted as "don't worry--god'll fix things so you're just happy and not bothered by this.

Sounds like god's going to perform some lobotomys or possibly be administering large doses of
anti-psychotics.

Another theory is once you get to heaven--you'll simply understand "divine justice" and it'll seem perfectly reasonable why your 17 year old son who was killed in a car accident and maybe just wasn't around long enough to get "saved" is roasting in hell while you're living the good life.

My own favorite though was the "Newhart Dream Sequence" explanation. This involves the fact that everybody you knew in your life that's not going to heaven.....never really existed. They were just placedthere by god as test for those that god had chosen to be saved.

If guilt & fear were money--these people would all be billionaires...............

This was something that used to bother me a LOT. I could not imagine my husband or ANY human being literally burning forever. I could not imagine a being that would do this. As an adult I looked into some of the more liberal interpretations of the Bible and was told about the mistranslation of the word 'sheol' and 'gheanna' in the Bible. I think this makes some Christians feel better because they think 'Oh, my loved ones won't literally burn forever, they will just be dead or separated from God!' It didn't make me feel much better though, because if I were going to live forever, I wouldn't want my loved ones to be anywhere except near me. But that fear...that fear of a literal burning hell takes along time to get out of your psyche.

 

[LisaLynn]

Thanks for sharing, and welcome.

I can relate to your experiences. I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. My parents listened to James Dobson on the radio and watched The 700 Club. I was told that the theory of evolution by natural selection was a Satanic lie. And even though I knew that I was supposed to feel excited about it, I was frightened of the prospect of the Rapture, especially considering that I was told that it would almost certainly happen in my lifetime, probably in a mere few years. For one thing I worried that I would be too sinful to pass muster. "You were left behind because you wouldn't stop touching yourself you filthy little sinner" Jesus would say. And anyway, I was horrified at the prospect that so many of my friends and relatives, whom I knew to be good, caring people, would be judged unworthy of God's mercy and sent to Hell for all eternity.

But I had always been interested in science. My enthusiasm for astronomy led me to read Carl Sagan's Cosmos. I enjoyed it so much that I wanted to read his other books. I happened upon Broca's Brain and was suddenly immersed in the simple beauty of science. The wonders revealed by science were so much more enthralling than the "wonders" that religion had indoctrinated me to believe. The universe suddenly became mysterious beyond my comprehension. I saw that my religious teachers, well meaning as they were, relied on pretend certainty in an imaginary universe. But I came to see that uncertainty was not something to fear and mask, but rather something to revel in. No matter how wonderful the discoveries that are made, there will still be greater questions for us to seek the answers to.

And you'll get over your fear. Soon you'll realize that you're still the same person and that the things that you really love and care about are the same as ever. It's much more refreshing to see the world as something we should work to better, rather than something wicked that needs to be destroyed. And you'll be free to accept people whom you would otherwise be expected to be critical of.

Foster,

I haven't read Cosmos yet, but I have it. Demon Haunted World helped me tremendously. It was one of the books recommended by my atheist friend who helped me deconvert. I have whole sections of it underlined and I go back and read them from time to time. I find it rather comforting at times.

The fear is something I still have trouble with. For example, I mentioned the dreams about nuclear war that I used to have growing up. Because I went through a time when I was deconverting where I read about the supposed rapture and things related to it, it stirred up some of the old fears. I was sitting on the sofa with my husband a couple of weeks ago and we heard some really loud explosions outside. I jumped up and ran to the balcony and guess what my first fear was? Not anything rational, of course, but something rapture related. The fear only lasted maybe 5 seconds, and it was just a knee jerk reaction, but then I got angry with the people that taught me that stuff when I was growing up. There is no reason to scare human beings like that and scar them for life. (Turned out to be fireworks, by the way.)

My mother, who is elderly now, said to me the other day when I brought up evolution that she thinks it's a 'fib'. She knows we have differing opinions on things and we've come to the point where we just don't talk about religion anymore. I tried to show her some stuff I found about the rapture, Darby, etc., but she is so ingrained in her beliefs that even though she doesn't go to church anymore, she still believes the rapture will happen. I don't push it with her because of her age. I think if she found out it wasn't true that it was devastate her mentally and that would affect her health. Anyway, I told her that evolution is not a 'fib' and she seemed open to hearing more about it. I'll address it with her sometime when we are face to face, but in a very gentle and teaching way.

The part about accepting people used to bother me a lot too. I grew up in the South, but in a diverse area. I knew a lot of gay people growing up and I've never harbored an ill thought towards anyone of a different religion or race or towards anyone who was gay. It makes me sick that some people do.

Thanks so much for your reply!

 

[slingblade]

Lisa, we were separated at birth or something. Welcome to the forums.

 

[Paulhoff]

Here you go Lisa, Richard Feynman, a scientist that I have watched and enjoyed for years. He says a lot of how I think about things.



Paul

 

[LisaLynn]

Thanks Slingblade! I think I'm going to like it here.

Paul, that was really good. I can now add Richard Feynman to the list of scientists I want to know more about. Thanks!

 

[hamelekim]

What I find disturbing about this is that the bible seems to imply that people in Heaven can actually communicate with people in Hell. You've been in Heaven one billion years and your family has been in hell for the same length of time what would you tell a loved one burning in said hell?

First off, if you read the Bible you would know what those who are saved will not spend eternity in Heaven. There will be a new Heaven and a new Earth.

Everyone who is saved will be resurrected and reign with Christ for eternity.

Hence the idea that we will be in heaven and can communicate with people in Hell is false.

Secondly, Hell will be cast into the lake of fire, so it won't be where it is now and any existing communication, if there is any would be cut off.

Thirdly, Everyone has a choice to make in this life. You can choose life, or your can choose death. If you don't like the idea of your unsaved family burning in hell then you better work on saving them, rather than hating God.

We all have free will and it is a personal choice that everyone needs to make to server God. You cannot blame God because he gave everyone a choice. The blame lies solely with the person.

If you really think that God is so evil, because he allows suffering, why would he come in the flesh and take upon himself all the sin of humanity, throughout past, present, and future?

God is so beyond any of our comprehension that to argue that he is evil based on what little we know is foolishness.

We don't know the whole picture, but given what God has done, and what he went through on the cross, it must be that things are being done this way for a very good reason.

Lastly, there is a passage in the Old Testament that makes reference to the old heaven and earth being forgotten. This leads me to believe that we will forget about our family and friends who were lost. If this bothers someone then by all means they can go to hell to be with them, but that is short sighted and foolish thinking.

 

[Hokulele]

If you really think that God is so evil, because he allows suffering, why would he come in the flesh and take upon himself all the sin of humanity, throughout past, present, and future?

If you think that god is so good, why would he allow sin in the first place?

 

[six7s]

First off, if you read the Bible you would know what those who are saved will not spend eternity in Heaven. There will be a new Heaven and a new Earth.

If you skip that work of fiction, you can forget the whole stupid idea

[ completely unsubstantiated woo snipped ]
If you really think that God is so evil, because he allows suffering, why would he come in the flesh and take upon himself all the sin of humanity, throughout past, present, and future?

God is so beyond any of our comprehension that to argue that he is evil based on what little we know is foolishness.

How sad that you are oblivious to the ridiculous irony of the delusion-fueled stupidity of your so-called arguments

We don't know the whole picture, but given what God has done, and what he went through on the cross, it must be that things are being done this way for a very good reason.

Or... more likely... that you and your fellow woosters are crowing nonsense from dawn til dusk

Lastly, there is a passage in the Old Testament that makes reference to the old heaven and earth being forgotten. This leads me to believe that we will forget about our family and friends who were lost. If this bothers someone then by all means they can go to hell to be with them, but that is short sighted and foolish thinking.

Spouting such circular reasoning is how fools disappear up their fundamental orifice

 

[hamelekim]

If you think that god is so good, why would he allow sin in the first place?

I don't think any of us knows that answer. God hasn't deemed it necessary to give us the answer either.

If you can't deal with that, then so be it, but don't assume that God is evil because he allows evil. If God created everything that exists, seen and unseen, then can you honestly believe that you have some moral superiority to God?

 

[hamelekim]

If you skip that work of fiction, you can forget the whole stupid idea


How sad that you are oblivious to the ridiculous irony of the delusion-fueled stupidity of your so-called arguments

Or... more likely... that you and your fellow woosters are crowing nonsense from dawn til dusk


Spouting such circular reasoning is how fools disappear up their fundamental orifice

I'm sorry but you are a fool if you honestly believe there isn't a God. You are going to get a rude awakening someday.

 

[Hokulele]

I don't think any of us knows that answer. God hasn't deemed it necessary to give us the answer either.

Which is more evidence why god isn't good. Seems silly to cover up mistakes rather than never make them in the first place.

If you can't deal with that, then so be it, but don't assume that God is evil because he allows evil.

It only seems fair to make this assumption since you seem to assume god must be good for creating good.

If God created everything that exists, seen and unseen, then can you honestly believe that you have some moral superiority to God?

I honestly believe I am morally superior to god. But then again, I feel the same way towards all fictional characters.

 

[hamelekim]

Which is more evidence why god isn't good. Seems silly to cover up mistakes rather than never make them in the first place.

It only seems fair to make this assumption since you seem to assume god must be good for creating good.

I honestly believe I am morally superior to god. But then again, I feel the same way towards all fictional characters.

You seem to have a very unnaturally high opinion of yourself. I think you should get that checked out by a registered psychiatrist.

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.

As for God creating evil. God gave us free will. Free will can lead to evil because not doing God's will is evil.

What is the point in creating people to worship you if they won't do it willingly? The only way to have them do it willingly is to give them free will. hence we all have a choice.

 

[Hokulele]

You seem to have a very unnaturally high opinion of yourself. I think you should get that checked out by a registered psychiatrist.

You are basing this judgement on an Internet post regarding fictional characters? Talk about an unnaturally high opinion of oneself...

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.

Really? Then why is he described as having changes of heart, or repenting of his decisions throughout the Old Testament. Sounds like mistakes to me.

As for God creating evil. God gave us free will. Free will can lead to evil because not doing God's will is evil

What is the point in creating people to worship you if they won't do it willingly? The only way to have them do it willingly is to give them free will. hence we all have a choice.

Why bother creating things to worship you at all in the first place? Speaking of having an unnaturally high opinion of oneself...

 

[Mr Clingford]

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.

While I myself agree with the first assertion, I don't think that God necessarily planned everything as that leaves no room for creation to grow and also, surely, goes against the idea of free will?

 

[Mr Clingford]

Why bother creating things to worship you at all in the first place? Speaking of having an unnaturally high opinion of oneself...

Yes, this certainly sounds hugely anthropomorphic and egotistical - personally I find the idea of 'Think of something you find amazing and mind-blowing, doesn't your jaw just drop and you are in awe of it? Perhaps God is the epitome of all of these things (like Plato's Forms) and worshipping God is like that?' I hope so, or the afterlife would be dreadfully boring. God as a combination of the sexiest car and woman and tree (as I like them) possible.

 

[hamelekim]

You are basing this judgement on an Internet post regarding fictional characters? Talk about an unnaturally high opinion of oneself...

Really? Then why is he described as having changes of heart, or repenting of his decisions throughout the Old Testament. Sounds like mistakes to me.

Why bother creating things to worship you at all in the first place? Speaking of having an unnaturally high opinion of oneself...

If he is the beginning and end, and knows everything that everyone will ever do then he has to know what is going to happen, unless he willingly chooses to limit his view of the future in certain regards.

He might do this in order to give us true free will. Otherwise the very act of creation is setting into motion specific events that will create an outcome that he knows will occur.

I don't think there is enough information given in the Bible, at least from what I have read to specifically answer this question.

It's also possible that he knows what is going to happen but is still repentant that things had to be the way they are.

Human beings are made to worship. We choose to worship many things, from nature to people to gods. We all get a certain way when around celebrities or people we look up to who are famous.

take that feeling and multiply it by infinity when in the presence of God. I think that God deserves worship. It is our choice whether we want to worship him, but we all worship something, whether you want to admit it or not.

I wouldn't say that God has an unnaturally high opinion of himself, after all, he created all of existence, what has humanity done of late to merit worship?

 

[hamelekim]

While I myself agree with the first assertion, I don't think that God necessarily planned everything as that leaves no room for creation to grow and also, surely, goes against the idea of free will?

God could have limited his view of the future in certain aspects because he didn't want to completely control the outcome of our choices. I don't know if this is true or not though.