French church attacked by terrorists

[trustbutverify]

I look foward to His Popeness explaining this latest atrocity in terms of what goes around comes around:

If someone “says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch,” he joked, according to an Associated Press translation. “It’s normal. It’s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.”

Any day now.

 

[Caper]

Islam is in Europe for decades, and situation didn't change much in the last year. So it's not just 'Islam' .. thought it might be 'Islam, given enough time' ..

To paraphrase the Notorious B.I.G. Mo Islam, Mo problems.

 

[Noztradamus]

Nice verbal gymnastics to try to avoid the fact that Islamic Extremist killed somebody because he was of another religion.

Well, they aren't allowed to kill people of their own religion (unless apostate, or heretic, or the day ends in a "y")

 

[Corsair 115]

Not shared by most, but a significant portion of world Muslims support death for apostasy and punishments for homosexuality.

And suicide bombing is considered often or sometimes justified by an overall 16% of Muslims in eleven Muslim-predominant countries that has a combined Muslim population of 804 million, according to a Pew Research study and some basic math.

How many non-Muslims in Western countries think deliberately killing oneself and killing others in the process in the service of a cause is an acceptable act often or sometimes? I'd be surprised if that amounted to even half of one percent.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I just grasped that Daesh is a cognate of douche.

Say it loud and say it proud. Say it often.

 

[Noztradamus]

It is a little puzzling in that the term Daesh is a disparaging way of referring to IS.

No more puzzling than black people referring to *******

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Question is .. is there a solution to this ? I mean if we stop people from entering the country, if we can't even deport them, and if we can't jail them for life based on what they might do ..

Yes, there is. We'll be waiting with it for when you're ready.

 

[A'isha]

And suicide bombing is considered often or sometimes justified by an overall 16% of Muslims in eleven Muslim-predominant countries that has a combined Muslim population of 804 million, according to a Pew Research study and some basic math.

How many non-Muslims in Western countries think deliberately killing oneself and killing others in the process in the service of a cause is an acceptable act often or sometimes? I'd be surprised if that amounted to even half of one percent.

 

[cullennz]

[qimg]http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f16/aishap/gfhduttxaueh0crpgmnwna_zpsb9vietj5.gif[/qimg]

Interesting

 

[tyr_13]

Yes, there is. We'll be waiting with it for when you're ready.

I bet it's a final one, right?

 

[McHrozni]

How many non-Muslims in Western countries think deliberately killing oneself and killing others in the process in the service of a cause is an acceptable act often or sometimes? I'd be surprised if that amounted to even half of one percent.

The problem with the question, as A'sha will milk it, is that the question as posed has an obvious answer: yes, it is sometimes acceptable to act in a way that will ensure your death in order to kill others.

For example, launching launching himself onto a gunman on rampage with a knife probably knows he will himself die, but he's willing to make that sacrifice in order to kill the gunman before he kills more people (his children, for instance). I'm certain there would be essentially no one that would object to that, irrespective of religious beliefs.

The question is unable to distinguish this sort of heroic sacrifice from a suicide bombing, where Muslims are somewhat over-represented compared to their overall population.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/450-of...n-2015-were-by-muslim-extremists-study-shows/

What the question should ask is something like "are suicide bombings of civilians ever justified" or something to that effect.

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=97

A decade ago, 1 in 3 French Muslims considered suicide bombings and other attacks against civilians in defense of Islam at least sometimes justified. That's a small country worth of terrorists and sympathizers, in a country where the usual excuses of poverty and oppression do not apply.

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

Another "rational" purpose would be to use shocking attacks against enemy civilians to undermine support for military operations directed at ISIS targets ...

Does it seem plausible to you that ISIS believes that cutting an elderly priest's throat is going to undermine support for military section against them?

When in 1914 the Allies wanted to increase support among their own populations for military action against Germany, they publicised accounts (both true and fabricated) of atrocities of that kind, committed or allegedly committed by the German Army in occupied Belgium.

 

[cullennz]

Indeed.

What ISIS want is the exact opposite

 

[Noztradamus]

Does it seem plausible to you that ISIS believes that cutting an elderly priest's throat is going to undermine support for military section against them?

When in 1914 the Allies wanted to increase support among their own populations for military action against Germany, they publicised accounts (both true and fabricated) of atrocities of that kind, committed or allegedly committed by the German Army in occupied Belgium.

But that's looking at it with an Enlightenment mindset

For ISIS motivation you need to be more traditional

http://www.ancient.eu/Assyrian_Warfare/

 

[trustbutverify]

Indeed.

What ISIS want is the exact opposite

No, what ISIS want is not the exact opposite.

 

[Aepervius]

A decade ago, 1 in 3 French Muslims considered suicide bombings and other attacks against civilians in defense of Islam at least sometimes justified. That's a small country worth of terrorists and sympathizers, in a country where the usual excuses of poverty and oppression do not apply.

McHrozni

The question is not what muslim believe. The question is what french muslim believe versus the rest of the french population.

I scrolled quickly the pew report and did not see that question, but I may have missed it.

And 1/3 is misleading. You are mixing up often justified, rarely justified, and sometimes justified together. A tactic known as slicing the salami, you pose 3 time the same question but add a frequency, then thereafter you group them all in a poll, and that is very misleading.

 

[Aepervius]

I also note that they do not slice up muslim by culture.

Muslim in Germany often are from turkisch origin, and have a different culture than from muslim in france often coming froma few north african countries (tunisia, maroco, algeria mostly).


It makes as much sense as comparing christian from russia with christian from france, or heck christian from USA. The country culture will almost certainly have a bigger influence.

 

[trustbutverify]

Does it seem plausible to you that ISIS believes that cutting an elderly priest's throat is going to undermine support for military section against them?

Yes, it seems entirely plausible to me. The underlying principle of this type of terrorist campaign is to associate a brutal civilian cost with a target's traditional military operations. At first, of course, it will strengthen resolve. But the goal is, with time and persistence, civilian populations will turn against their leadership for "provoking" these horrifying terrorist attacks with their "meddling", and demand an end to it.

 

[McHrozni]

The question is not what muslim believe. The question is what french muslim believe versus the rest of the french population.

I scrolled quickly the pew report and did not see that question, but I may have missed it.

It was a poll of Muslims, so I doubt they asked non-Muslims those questions. There is little evidence the non-Muslim French engage in terrorism like we see today. Sure there's an odd Breton here and there, their last attempt was 16 years ago when they conducted a bombing that killed or injured no one (though there was one death in the aftermath). Brittany has a population of 4.5 million, but there are over 6 million Muslims in France, so you'd expect two Breton attacks for each Muslim one, if all things were equal. Clearly they aren't.

And 1/3 is misleading. You are mixing up often justified, rarely justified, and sometimes justified together. A tactic known as slicing the salami, you pose 3 time the same question but add a frequency, then thereafter you group them all in a poll, and that is very misleading.

Given the environment the question was asked in, any answer other than "never" is enough to classify that person as a terrorist or terrorist sympathizer. Slicing the question into three parts only serves to separate those who sympathize with terrorists (but are unlikely to offer any active support) from those who sympathize with terrorists and are likely to offer them active support and from those who sympathize with terrorists and are likely to conduct attacks themselves. All three groups are scum.

What is more, the group "often justified" isn't exactly small at 6%. That's easily 300 000 or more people who consider violence against civilian targets in defense of Islam often justified. France only has 4-5 cities with more people than that.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

I also note that they do not slice up muslim by culture.

Muslim in Germany often are from turkisch origin, and have a different culture than from muslim in france often coming froma few north african countries (tunisia, maroco, algeria mostly).

It makes as much sense as comparing christian from russia with christian from france, or heck christian from USA. The country culture will almost certainly have a bigger influence.

The vast majority of Muslims in France were born in France. They originate outside of France, and some cultures are indeed worse than others. Arabs in particular are more likely to be problematic, but not because they're Arabs, but because they submit to a supremacist ideology that originated in Arabia. The recent events in Turkey prove that the Turks aren't immune to the same problems with the same ideology.
The problem is ideology - Islam. Some nationalities suffer more from it, whereas others suffer less. The main difference is in the extent of the problem however and not in the form the problem takes.

McHrozni