French church attacked by terrorists

[Craig B]

ISIS' endgame is an apocalyptic confrontation between the devout and the infidel. I'm increasingly of the opinion that we should partner with them to bring that about as soon as possible. If electing Trump gets us there, what's not to like?

This is not to like: you may be "electing the Last Trump", which may bring about an "apocalyptic confrontation" too radical for most tastes.

 

[Polaris]

ISIS' endgame is an apocalyptic confrontation between the devout and the infidel. I'm increasingly of the opinion that we should partner with them to bring that about as soon as possible. If electing Trump gets us there, what's not to like?

The collateral damage.

 

[theprestige]

This is not to like: you may be "electing the Last Trump", which may bring about an "apocalyptic confrontation" too radical for most tastes.

LOL. I doubt it. I think even ISIS wouldn't come to much harm from a Trump presidency, let alone the world at large.

If Hillary promised to give ISIS the final military confrontation they desire, in her first term, would that be a positive or a negative of her candidacy, in your view?

 

[Hlafordlaes]

THat is the kind of solution that sounds great in a college seminar, but has real problems working in the real world.
Problem is people are not to going to turn the other cheek to these attacks while your long term solution works.

The first two are actually immediately actionable. In my view, current easy access by otherwise non-radical youth in the West to ISIS and other materials online needs to stop. Most likely this cannot be done 100%, and has legal impediments, but is a first area to work on. Personally, I'd like to see teams of hackers take down such sites repeatedly, local ISPs getting pressured or run off by ICANN or denial of IP ranges or some such, and so on. If needed, begin to pressure a country's entire telecommunications system via military means.

Depending on local Constitutional law, ban hate speech. Even in the US, there are such things as fighting words. Some religious statements could be legitimately regarded as such. It is my considered opinion that, as harsh as this might sound, a great deal of what is taught in Islam could be considered such if uttered in sermon, as well as other parts considered an incitement to riot or criminal conspiracy. Use these concepts as far as possible within the law to shut down web sites and social media discourse.

Finally, understand that all military action has a price in the form of oaths taken while possessed of moral outrage.

The broadest covering narrative of them all is that there are times and places it is OK to kill, because reasons. Capital punishment, in this sense, is an enabler of a vicious worldview, regardless of any particular case merits. Abolish it now.

But in general, what might give you the impression that the problem is short term?

 

[mbp]

This attack would seem to me to directly target Western hearts and minds, in order to make them angry, retaliate against Muslims, and swell the ranks of ISIS.

Couldn't it also be that the motive was simply to kill infidels with no particular consideration for what they might feel about it?

 

[McHrozni]

I think it is a surprise. The recent spate of attacks such as these is aberrant and requires some sort of explanation.

The common explanation is that Europe recently let in about a million of so migrants, some of whom were ISIS supporters, either infilitrated or decided they prefer the paradise later, and they're now doing the trouble.

McHrozni

 

[Polaris]

Couldn't it also be that the motive was simply to kill infidels with no particular consideration for what they might feel about it?

That's possible, but unlikely, given that they didn't even attempt a mass-casualty spectacular event, but instead killed only the priest, after giving a "sermon"*, and also took hostages.


*According to one of the hostages.

 

[cullennz]

What scares me is that we will see attacks like this in the US with the main motive of electing Trump,which would be the biggest victory imaginable for ISIS and Al Qaeda.

Think ISIS are more interested in the other side of the world at the mo'

And it isn't like you don't have enough mass killings without them

 

[Caper]

I think it is a surprise. The recent spate of attacks such as these is aberrant and requires some sort of explanation.

Ok.

Islam.

 

[mbp]

That's possible, but unlikely, given that they didn't even attempt a mass-casualty spectacular event, but instead killed only the priest, after giving a "sermon"*, and also took hostages.

I agree that indicates they were probably putting on a performance of some kind. But it's less clear to me who their intended audience was. It might be the infidels but it could also be their fellow believers or even their god.

 

[a_unique_person]

So you're saying we will probably never know their motivation?

It is a little puzzling in that the term Daesh is a disparaging way of referring to IS.

 

[Dr.Sid]

Ok.

Islam.

Islam is in Europe for decades, and situation didn't change much in the last year. So it's not just 'Islam' .. thought it might be 'Islam, given enough time' ..

 

[cullennz]

The common explanation is that Europe recently let in about a million of so migrants, some of whom were ISIS supporters, either infilitrated or decided they prefer the paradise later, and they're now doing the trouble.

McHrozni

Except the majority of recent have been either born there or are long term citizens

And they let in refugees

 

[A'isha]

It is a little puzzling in that the term Daesh is a disparaging way of referring to IS.

They hate it so much that they threatened to cut the tongues out of anyone that uses it.

 

[Dr.Sid]

Hm .. just read interesting article in local newspaper (Czech only, sry), and it was an interview with a psychiatrist. And he says that in cases like this, you can't blame religion or background alone. It's always combination of factors. Religion (or background in general) which at least justifies violence, frustration from unsuccessful life, some sort of mental instability, and also media impulse. It's a long chain, and it's built through the life. He thinks the current wave certainly has a aspects of copycat suicide, which actually has a name .. Werther effect .. but that just triggers person on the edge.
Islam for sure play huge role .. but luckily by default it won't push people to limits. More is needed, and even so, so far really only few labile individuals succumb. Thing is, we can't do much with Islam in general, and we can't do much with psychical lability or people's frustration. Of course we could bribe every possible violent person, to lower his life frustration, but that too would be amoral, and would only promote violent behavior.

We can do something with the media though. But then .. I can imagine not reporting on suicide cases to stop suicide wave .. but not reporting on terrorism would defy purpose of news, especially when it's hot political topic. But then terrorism as a meme lives in media .. it simply would not work in non-connected society.

Not that it gives solution, but I was happy to read something not simplistic as 'ban Islam' for a change ..

 

[Craig B]

Couldn't it also be that the motive was simply to kill infidels with no particular consideration for what they might feel about it?

You really think they cut the throat of a priest, during a service, took congregants hostage and were then killed by the security forces, as they presumably knew they must be - all for the sake of killing a single aged "infidel" of little renown outside his home village? And this without any intent of psychological manipulation?

If that is how they intend to wage war, they are doomed not merely to defeat, but to eternal mockery and humiliation.

No, if this atrocity had any rational purpose, it was intended to create or exacerbate hostility between non-Muslim and Muslim French citizens. This is ISIS' evident goal.

 

[Corsair 115]

Question is .. is there a solution to this ?

There are several potential solutions. The trouble is that most of them are politically and/or morally unpalatable.

 

[Polaris]

I agree that indicates they were probably putting on a performance of some kind. But it's less clear to me who their intended audience was. It might be the infidels but it could also be their fellow believers or even their god.

I'd imagine more will be forthcoming in the following few days.

It is a little puzzling in that the term Daesh is a disparaging way of referring to IS.

Perhaps they were using it ironically, sort of like the "Old Contemptibles".

 

[Wolrab]

Damn Trump voting for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and ordering sanctions and drone assassinations. Yup, he's the problem.

 

[trustbutverify]

You really think they cut the throat of a priest, during a service, took congregants hostage and were then killed by the security forces, as they presumably knew they must be - all for the sake of killing a single aged "infidel" of little renown outside his home village? And this without any intent of psychological manipulation?

If that is how they intend to wage war, they are doomed not merely to defeat, but to eternal mockery and humiliation.

No, if this atrocity had any rational purpose, it was intended to create or exacerbate hostility between non-Muslim and Muslim French citizens. This is ISIS' evident goal.

Another "rational" purpose would be to use shocking attacks against enemy civilians to undermine support for military operations directed at ISIS targets, and to generally make behaviors they find counterproductive as savagely expensive as possible. How effective this approach will turn out to be remains to be seen.