Free will and determinism

[Thermal]

Nope... they are not .... the furthest thing from it...

The Art of Repetition, The Secret of Success

Oh for god's sake...

[OT mode] Pro tip: those The Secret of Success and How to Win an Argument and the other Dale Carnegie bull **** things are intentionally geared to manipulating stupid people. This forum is not exactly chock full of stupid people. They are aware of such cheap argumentative tricks, and are, like myself, contemptuous of them. Annoyed by them, if you will. Insulted by the transparent attempt to treat readers here like we were poodles.

Take it as a given that not one reader here is influenced by these cheap tricks. They just have enough decorum not to object out loud.

[/OT mode]

 

[Leumas]

The Secret of Success and How to Win an Argument and ...

Ah... so you did read that book.... I see now.

But are you sure you have the right thread... this post of yours seems like a derail to me... since this is not related to the topic in any way possible???

 

[Thermal]

Ah... so you did read that book.... I see now.

No. I am familiar with the basic principles. I have not read the specific works because I associate with people farther to the right on the evolutionary scale, so such techniques are of little value. Can we return to topic pretty please?

 

[psionl0]

Lack of free will does not entail predeterminism.

Things can be (and are) indeterministic... but that does not entail free will.

The balls' trajectories in the video below are indeterministic ... but yet the metal balls have no free will...

You are conflating predictability with determinism. They are two different things.

We can not predict the result of a "fair" coin toss nor where a ball will land on a Galton Board. But this is not because these events are "indeterministic". It is because we don't have enough information to make such a prediction.

If the universe was deterministic then if we knew the entire state of every particle in the universe at a particular time, we would be able to predict every event from that time onwards. Events may be chaotic but still be predictable.

If humans were a product of that deterministic universe then their actions are "pre-programmed" and not the result of free will.

Of course, we have no way to test if the universe is deterministic or not because our knowledge is not perfect.

 

[Leumas]

No. I am familiar with the basic principles. I have not read the specific works because I associate with people farther to the right on the evolutionary scale, so such techniques are of little value. Can we return to topic pretty please?

You are the one who posted your post ... I am glad you have noticed that it is not related to the topic of this thread... thanks for saying so!!!

 

[Leumas]

....
Of course, we have no way to test if the universe is deterministic or not because our knowledge is not perfect.

Exactly... wow... yet again you say words of wisdom....

So... why are you still wrangling with me about it... I suggest you read a few books about Chaos theory... and Quantum Physics... and fusion... and fission... and the sun.... and turbulent fluid mechanics... and electrical storms and weather.... and and maybe also about Galaxies and their collisions etc.

However... I don't see why you are not resting now... you deserve a Nobel Prize for finally solving the "free-will" pseudo-dilemma....

I really think that your words of astounding perspicacity deserve to be commemorated in the United Nations General Assembly Hall and even in the Vatican writ large on stone tablets and displayed at St. Peter’s Basilica right in front of the La Pieta statue.... my favorite art ever.

And natural events don't do anything by "free will".

By the way... if perchance you are not aware of the profundity of wisdom in those words... notice the highlighted part and then.... answer this question.... what are humans???

 

[Thermal]

Ah... so you did read that book.... I see now.

But are you sure you have the right thread... this post of yours seems like a derail to me... since this is not related to the topic in any way possible???

WTF? You add the hilited edit in twenty minutes after I asked if we could return to topic, and 40 minutes after you made this post?

You are seriously trying to rewrite history now. Dude, the timestamps are printed on the posts, including the time of your edit, for like eternity, bud. you are not fooling anyone by trying to reconstruct what was said and when.

 

[Leumas]

WTF? You add the hilited edit in twenty minutes after I asked if we could return to topic, and 40 minutes after you made this post?

You are seriously trying to rewrite history now. Dude, the timestamps are printed on the posts, including the time of your edit, for like eternity, bud. you are not fooling anyone by trying to reconstruct what was said and when.

The above post of yours is more off topic derailing of the thread.... and that is in addition to the previous one.... why are you doing that??

PLEASE STOP!!!


.

 

[Thermal]

This post of yours is more off topic derailing of the thread.... why are you doing that??

For the same reason you continue, I suppose. But we know which of us will be banging on that report button to get it excised, don't we?

 

[Leumas]

For the same reason you continue, I suppose. But we know which of us will be banging on that report button to get it excised, don't we?

Even more derailing.... why do you do this???

PLEASE.... pretty please... for christ's sake... STOP!!!



.

 

[psionl0]

So... why are you still wrangling with me about it... I suggest you read a few books about Chaos theory... and Quantum Physics... and fusion... and fission... and the sun.... and turbulent fluid mechanics... and electrical storms and weather.... and and maybe also about Galaxies and their collisions etc.

You seem to believe that these are signs of indeterminism.

Aspects of the universe may appear chaotic but only because we don't have enough knowledge to predict these behaviours adequately. The best we can do is apply laws of probability to these events. This is similar to how we say that the result of a coin toss is "random" even though it is actually the result of factors we can't measure.

 

[Leumas]

....
Of course, we have no way to test if the universe is deterministic or not because our knowledge is not perfect.

Aspects of the universe may appear chaotic but only because we don't have enough knowledge to predict these behaviours adequately.

Ok... when you get some more knowledge come back and wrangle some more but out of knowledge not out of lack of it.... are you familiar with this fallacy?

You seem to believe that these are signs of indeterminism.

I do not believe... I know... so would you if you read enough about them... you wrangling that they are not is yet another example of this fallacy.

When you have read enough about those topics you will see how wrong you are right now.... I suggest you do.... especially now that you have already solved the pseudo-problem of the illusion of "free-will" with that exquisitely wise statement of yours.... you now can rest assured that the more you read the more you will see how wise your statement is.

 

[Leumas]

And natural events don't do anything by "free will".

By the way... if perchance you are not aware of the profundity of wisdom in those words... notice the highlighted part and then.... answer this question.... what are humans???

... the result of factors we can't measure.

You have not answered me yet... are humans natural events or not???

 

[GDon]

What do you think humans are... are they natural events or not???

ASSUMING, as I believe, that free-will is an evolutionary adaption, then free-will is a natural event. What else can it be? No need for a supernatural component or a quantum mechanics component, as Dennett points out.

There are parallels here with the idea of intelligent design and irreducible complexity. The IDists propose that some forms of life are 'irreducibly complex', unable to be derived through evolution. Thus God 'did it'. It's a nice theory, but unfortunately there is no evidence for it.

Similarly the idea that free-will needs some non-physical component to make sense. In fact, no-one can explain what that component must be, so that explanation doesn't get off the ground. But free-will developing via evolutionary processes makes sense.

 

[Leumas]

ASSUMING, as I believe, that free-will is an evolutionary adaption, then free-will is a natural event. What else can it be? No need for a supernatural component or a quantum mechanics component, as Dennett points out.....

Yes.... just like all the other illusions the human brain does as part of its evolutionary adaptations.

And.... as a very wise man once said...

...natural events don't do anything by "free will".

 

[psionl0]

Ok... when you get some more knowledge come back and wrangle some more but out of knowledge not out of lack of it.

I am not trying to "wrangle" anything. I am just trying to correct your apparent misconception that chaos is synonymous with indeterminism. The universe can be chaotic but still deterministic.

In an indeterministic universe, you could know the exact state of every particle in the universe at a particular time but still not predict what happens next. Such a scenario allows for the possibility of "free will" behaviour of humans (and other animals).

We may never know if the universe is deterministic or not.

 

[Leumas]

I think you should watch that video again and more carefully and start from the beginning not from minute 21.

It is not saying what you think it is saying... in fact if anything it is a rebuttal of your argument so far.

In summary the video is saying that the illusion of free-will is a product of random indeterministic processes in the brain and outside the brain.

In other words the illusion of free-will is just that... an illusion.... stemming out of randomness in interactions with and within the environment.

But Dennett also adds that it is better for humanity to keep the illusion going as if it were real.... not that he thinks it is real... just that it is better not to dispel the illusion because it is useful for humanity....

You'd need to point me to where Dennett says this and actually quote him. I'll point to about 7 mins in, where Dennett says:

"I've decided that this passage [about magic] sort of is an emblem of my whole life as a philosopher. Because one of the problems that I've had over the years is, I write a book about consciousness and people say, well, that's not real consciousness.....

I just noticed that you skipped the most important bit from the video transcript ... Why?

Here is the part you missed.... maybe if you had not missed it you might have noticed that Dennett is in fact rebutting what you think "free-will" is...

Read it again

this lovely book about Street magic Indian Street magic and in the book there's a great passage which I love to quote

"I'm writing a book on magic I explained, and I'm asked... real magic by real magic people... mean miracles thaumaturgic elack's supernatural powers???.... no I answer, conjuring tricks not real magic... real magic in other words refers to the magic that's not real while the magic that is real that can actually be done is not real magic"....

I've decided that this passage sort of is an emblem of my whole life as a philosopher. Because one of the problems that I've had over the years is, I write a book about consciousness and people say, well, that's not real consciousness.....

....
Dennett then goes on to explain how biology might support free-will.

So now can you see how Dennett is saying that biology supports the free-will that is the "Trick Magic that can be done".... and not the free-will of "woo woo Magic"???

In other words.... the STREET ILLUSIONS....

Yes... not the free-will you are talking about... and listen carefully to the parts you transcribed (and to the rest of the video)... they are in fact rebutting your assertions in the previous posts...

 

[Leumas]

... I suggest you read a few books about Chaos theory... and Quantum Physics... and fusion... and fission... and the sun.... and turbulent fluid mechanics... and electrical storms and weather.... and and maybe also about Galaxies and their collisions etc....

I am not trying to "wrangle" anything. I am just trying to correct your apparent misconception that chaos is synonymous with indeterminism.

I think once you read enough about it along with the other stuff I also mentioned you will find that it is your error...

... The universe can be chaotic but still deterministic.

How do you know???... you are asserting this DESPITE also admitting the below... this is a typical example of this fallacy.

... We may never know if the universe is deterministic or not.

....
Of course, we have no way to test if the universe is deterministic or not because our knowledge is not perfect.

Aspects of the universe may appear chaotic but only because we don't have enough knowledge to predict these behaviours adequately.

 

[Leumas]

I am not trying to "wrangle" anything.

But you still have neglected to answer the question... are humans natural events or not???

And natural events don't do anything by "free will".

 

[Darat]

I am not trying to "wrangle" anything. I am just trying to correct your apparent misconception that chaos is synonymous with indeterminism. The universe can be chaotic but still deterministic.

In an indeterministic universe, you could know the exact state of every particle in the universe at a particular time but still not predict what happens next. Such a scenario allows for the possibility of "free will" behaviour of humans (and other animals).

We may never know if the universe is deterministic or not.

We know in principle that you can never do that, and yes we have empirical proof of that, see uncertainty principle