Free will and determinism

[Leumas]

Maybe you are conflating the ability to make decisions with having "free-will" because I fail to see how a brain could ever evolve into anything more than a computer in a deterministic universe.

There are too many chaotic and indeterministic processes that are part of the universe thus rendering the universe indeterministic.

Brain responses to interaction with an indeterministic process is also indeterministic... hence the ILLUSION of free-will.

Which processes are they?

Do you know how the sun works... do you know what solar flares are... do you know what fission is... fusion... quantum physics... weather... turbulent flow... lightning... Galaxies colliding... etc. etc. etc.

Why do you call these processes "random"?

Show me where I said "random" and you quoted it as if I said it... I called them chaotic and indeterministic ...

Also you would know why if you studied them and the principles behind them.

You are so not describing "free will".

Yes... I was describing REALITY... not illusions.

Under identical circumstances, the "chaos" would happen again in exactly the same way.

No they will not... you would know if you studied the field of studies involved... e.g. chaos.

And natural events don't do anything by "free will".

EXACTLY... well said!!!


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[GDon]

Maybe you are conflating the ability to make decisions with having "free-will" because I fail to see how a brain could ever evolve into anything more than a computer in a deterministic universe.

Here is the definition of free-will on Wiki:

"Free will is the capacity of agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded."

Does the brain have the capacity to choose between different courses of action? I'd say it does.

Can there be different 'possible' courses of action in a deterministic world? Dennett would say 'yes', that even in a deterministic universe, the future is 'evitable', that is, the brain has evolved so as to foresee possible future events in order to avoid them.

Is the brain 'unimpeded' in choosing between different courses of action? No doubt the brain is flooded with options and impulses based on genetics, environment, hormones and habits. But as long as there are two possible choices to choose upon, the decision is a reflection of free-will.

The argument is usually made that the decision-making process itself is deterministic, that synapses fire one after the other in an unbroken line of cause and effect. But so what? That's still decision-making. As long as the decision is made unimpeded (and I don't count the unbroken line of cause and effect an impediment, because how else is the brain supposed to function?) then we have free-will. Not the illusion! But actual free-will.

 

[Leumas]

Imma go out on a locust-gnawed limb here and assert that no one, anywhere, thinks that free will means having control over all their environmental variables.

The reply to your statement has already been given to you many times over and in this post that you refused to and still won't read.

 

[Leumas]

Imma go out on a locust-gnawed limb here and assert that no one, anywhere, thinks that free will means having control over all their environmental variables.

....

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Free-will is the ability to make a decision based on two or more options, unconstrained by outside forces.....

 

[Thermal]

The reply to your statement has already been given to you many times over and in this post that you refused to and still won't read.

My apologies. I often forget that you consider your postings both brilliant and unimpeachable. I sometimes confuse them with being [content preemptively moderated] with a chainsaw.

 

[psionl0]

Show me where I said "random" and you quoted it as if I said it... I called them chaotic and indeterministic ...

There is a difference?

 

[Leumas]

There is a difference?

You used quotation marks.

And you would know the difference if you studied the fields of knowledge involved.

 

[Thermal]

Imma go out on a locust-gnawed limb here and assert that no one, anywhere, thinks that free will means having control over all their environmental variables.

Here is the definition of free-will on Wiki:

"Free will is the capacity of agents to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded."

Leumas, you are so close to the penny drop by quoting those two together. Just edge a little more...

 

[Leumas]

Leumas, you are so close to the penny drop by quoting those two together. Just edge a little more...

I am glad you are close to finally understanding it... just read this post and you will eventually get it in full.... maybe... hopefully!!!

 

[Thermal]

I am glad you are close to finally understanding it... just read this post and you will eventually get it in full.... maybe... hopefully!!!

Jesus Christ, are you going to start reposting and linking the same thing over and over again? Have we not been through this on multiple other threads?

I read it. Please understand that reposting or linking or repeating it is therefore stupid.

I found it lacking. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to defend or elaborate on the inspired wisdom you have graced we peons with.

Actually, let's try that as approach to reach you: "Leumas the Wise, my little brain cannot grasp your most cherished gift that you have handed down to we nitwits. Can you clarify your genius for us?"

 

[psionl0]

You used quotation marks.

And you would know the difference if you studied the fields of knowledge involved.

You obviously haven't studied the fields of knowledge involved. You are just making stuff up.

 

[Leumas]

You obviously haven't studied the fields of knowledge involved. You are just making stuff up.

mKay... if you say so!!!


But you finally got it

And natural events don't do anything by "free will".

EXACTLY... well said!!!


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[Leumas]

Jesus Christ, are you going to start reposting and linking the same thing over and over again? Have we not been through this on multiple other threads?

I read it. Please understand that reposting or linking or repeating it is therefore stupid.

I found it lacking. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to defend or elaborate on the inspired wisdom you have graced we peons with.

Actually, let's try that as approach to reach you: "Leumas the Wise, my little brain cannot grasp your most cherished gift that you have handed down to we nitwits. Can you clarify your genius for us?"

Nope!!!


But the guy below explained it perfectly in one sentence.... read it!

And natural events don't do anything by "free will".

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[Leumas]

Here is the definition of free-will on Wiki:...

No need.... this guy has explained it perfectly in one sentence... I suggest you read it ... it is words of wisdom... a beauty to behold... I wish I said it first!!!

And natural events don't do anything by "free will".

.

 

[Thermal]

Nope!!!


But the guy below explained it perfectly in one sentence.... read it!

Right. External events like humidity conditions and locust breeding are unrelated to the experience of a human having free will. And?

 

[Leumas]

Right. External events like humidity conditions and locust breeding are unrelated to the experience of a human having free will. And?

Do I really have to explain this to you.... it is one succinct sentence that explains it PERFECTLY.... I am so jealous I never thought of it myself... what genius...


Ponder over it for a while... I am sure you might hopefully eventually get it.

Hint: What do you think humans are... are they natural events or not???

 

[GDon]

What free-will am I talking about? And please actually quote Dennett, because frankly I don't trust your 'summary' of his view.

Watch the video... and read the bits you transcribed carefully.

Invoking Hitchen's Razor: I just watched the video, and Dennett completely validates my points! Apparently Dennett says in the video: "GDon is completely correct!" Gosh!

 

[Leumas]

Invoking Hitchen's Razor: I just watched the video, and Dennett completely validates my points! Apparently Dennett says in the video: "GDon is completely correct!" Gosh!

No he does not...

However... it is all moot now.... why are you even still going on.... read the below... it explains it all perfectly... you do not need to carry on... just read the below most astoundingly sagacious statement... it rives to dust your or what you think anyone else's explanations is... read it and think over it ... you will see... I am sure of it.

And natural events don't do anything by "free will".

QED!!!


But... if you cannot grasp the wisdom and genius of the above ... think about it but here is a hint...

Hint: What do you think humans are... are they natural events or not???

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[Thermal]

QED!!!


But... if you cannot grasp the wisdom and genius of the above ... think about it but here is a hint...

Hint: What do you think humans are... are they natural events or not???

Yes Leumas. I got it. I got it the first time. EVERYBODY GOT IT THE FIRST TIME. Some of us maybe smirked a little. If you like, we will all give you some brief polite applause for your clever little zinger.

But here's the thing: run down to the local drugstore and find the smartest looking guy you see. Ask of him: "I made a clever little zinger! Should I move on, or repeat it 75 times across multiple threads?"

He will likely answer "just let it go, and be remembered for the clever little zinger. If you repeat it 75 times across multiple threads, you look like a doofus".

Words of wisdom, Leumas. Words of wisdom.

 

[Leumas]

....
Words of wisdom, Leumas. Words of wisdom.

Nope... they are not .... the furthest thing from it...

The Art of Repetition, The Secret of Success

Repetition is a safety net that humans use everyday.

Writers rely on repetition in stories to hook the reader in.... It’s a powerful device used in fiction writing.... In best seller writing, fast reading that requires less attention and mental heavy work, a trope does the trick for writer and reader to connect to each other through repetitions of ideas....

Psychology and Writers
In psychology it’s well known that the human brain uses repetition to feel secure about daily life. To avoid leaving the rails of a daily routine, repetition saves us from becoming dumbfounded by strangeness.

....