France Goes Nuts!

[Luke T.]

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I agree that that is one likely outcome. I don't agree that it's obviously the only outcome. It might happen that way; it might not.

An alternative outcome is : there is initially vocal opposition, but over time that dies away and people just continue much as before. Muslims get on with life, just as jews and christians do, and girls stop wearing headscarves in schools. There are a few problems, but for every girl who wants to, there is another who is happy that she is no longer forced to.

I just feel that when I've thought something political/social was so obvious to be self-evident but many people disagree with me, it's always been a sign that I don't fully understand or appreciate the issue; even when I've turned out to have been right.

There will be some Muslim girls who will take off their scarves and will continue to go to public schools. But there will be some who refuse and will no longer go to public schools. The end result will be that less Muslim girls will be going to public schools. That is polarization, pure and simple.

edited to add: Think about it. How will this law encourage more Muslim girls to be integrated into society? This isn't about integration, it is about assimilation. An erosion of culture, which is a direct intrusion of the state on a church.

 

[Darat]

Not directly on topic but this is a good summary of the French educational system that may provide some background for the debate.

http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-education/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=95

 

[bignickel]

I have not made up my mind on the issue. It certainly is alot more complex than I first thought.

On the one hand, we Americans are so used to the Bill of Rights, that we take it for granted that we should be able to express ourselves.

On the other hand: weren't we all a little peeved when that airline piloted started preaching his xtianity to a rather captive audience the other day?

We have the Bill of Rights here in the USA, so we take it for granted that we can speak or wear things that express our ideas. But remember: French law comes down from the tradition of the Napoleonic code: the people are allowed the rights that government gives them, not the other way round.

Remember: this law ONLY affects public schools. Our own public schools here in the USA have rules about what students can't wear: you think students are allowed to walk around in bikinis? What if they said that their religion demanded it?

Check out this article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4106422/

Note this passage:
"We have seen tragic examples where a young Muslim student was stoned, or even burned to death, because she wasn’t wearing a veil, or fasting during the holy month of Ramadan," Kepel said. "If this continues, we are going to have a society that is utterly divided.’’

Who is oppressing who here, exactly?

How about this quote:
"Kepel said French schools have become "hunting fields" — recruiting centers for radical Islamic students who want to impose extremist views on others. "

Now, you may disagree with the accuracy of Kepel's opinion. But remember: he's there in France to observe this kind of stuff. And we're not. It may be rather obvious, but France is not the USA. Both countries have VERY differant issues that affect them based on their history and population.

The French want to remain French: they do not want to become like America, with it's constant infighting of groups ('whites', 'blacks', jews, 'asians', hispanics, et al), each trying to control differant sectors of politics, business and entertainment.

 

[DanishDynamite]

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Luke T.:

There will be some Muslim girls who will take off their scarves and will continue to go to public schools. But there will be some who refuse and will no longer go to public schools. The end result will be that less Muslim girls will be going to public schools. That is polarization, pure and simple.

Perhaps. It would depend on quite a number of factors, such as the ease with which private schools can be established and the cost to parents and whether there would be any state funding. There might also be national graduation tests which any pupil in France would need to pass, no matter whether the pupil attended a public or private school.

Plus, the time spent in school is not 24 hours per day. The pupil will still be influenced by the mores of the society he/she is in.

edited to add: Think about it. How will this law encourage more Muslim girls to be integrated into society? This isn't about integration, it is about assimilation. An erosion of culture, which is a direct intrusion of the state on a church.

It is indeed about assimilation. Is there some problem with this?

 

[Luke T.]

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Luke T.erhaps. It would depend on quite a number of factors, such as the ease with which private schools can be established and the cost to parents and whether there would be any state funding. There might also be national graduation tests which any pupil in France would need to pass, no matter whether the pupil attended a public or private school.

Lucky for us that Darat provided information about private schools.

It is indeed about assimilation. Is there some problem with this?

There is a right way and a wrong way to assimilate people. The right way is to teach tolerance of those who are different than us and to enact laws which prohibit discrimination, not pass laws which are discriminatory and attempt to suppress a cultural way of life.

Do you really want vanilla to be your only flavor option in life?

 

[pgwenthold]

I think the best part about the French law is that they have applied it to ALL religious symbols, including crosses and yamakas. At least if they wanted to ban muslim head gear, they recognized they had to ban everything religious.

Was that the plan from the beginning, or did they have to come around to eventually?

 

[DanishDynamite]

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Luke T.:

Lucky for us that Darat provided information about private schools.

Lucky indeed. What did his link reveal?

There is a right way and a wrong way to assimilate people. The right way is to teach tolerance of those who are different than us and to enact laws which prohibit discrimination, not pass laws which are discriminatory and attempt to suppress a cultural way of life.

The right way is whatever works. And the French law doesn't discriminate anyone.

Do you really want vanilla to be your only flavor option in life?

Do you really want to outlaw the concept of school uniforms?

 

[Jon_in_london]

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There is a right way and a wrong way to assimilate people. The right way is to teach tolerance of those who are different than us and to enact laws which prohibit discrimination, not pass laws which are discriminatory and attempt to suppress a cultural way of life.

Do you really want vanilla to be your only flavor option in life?

Luke, how are you going to assimilate people who view the indigenous culture as making sluts and whores out of their daughters?

 

[iain]

I think the best part about the French law is that they have applied it to ALL religious symbols, including crosses and yamakas. At least if they wanted to ban muslim head gear, they recognized they had to ban everything religious.

Was that the plan from the beginning, or did they have to come around to eventually?

If anything the other way round. I think that large crosses and jewish skull-caps were already banned; this law defines the muslim headscarf as a religious symbol.

 

[Darat]

If anything the other way round. I think that large crosses and jewish skull-caps were already banned; this law defines the muslim headscarf as a religious symbol.

"large crosses"? I smell a hint of hypocrisy here, why any crosses if they are banned as a religious symbol? Perhaps the Muslim girls should just wear a small head covering then...?

 

[Luke T.]

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Luke T.:Lucky indeed. What did his link reveal?

With respect to "the ease with which private schools can be established and the cost to parents and whether there would be any state funding" it reveals that private schools are already established and are of two types; state-funded and non-state-funded. With regard to "there might also be national graduation tests which any pupil in France would need to pass, no matter whether the pupil attended a public or private school," it depends on whether they attend a state-funded private school or a non-state-funded private school.

So there is nothing to prevent Muslim parents from yanking their kids out of public school and sending them to private school.

The right way is whatever works. And the French law doesn't discriminate anyone.

It discriminates against religious people. And alienates them.

Do you really want to outlaw the concept of school uniforms?

Vanilla people. That's what this law wants. It wants people who are different out of sight.

 

[Luke T.]

I think the best part about the French law is that they have applied it to ALL religious symbols, including crosses and yamakas. At least if they wanted to ban muslim head gear, they recognized they had to ban everything religious.

Have they banned Jewish boys from attending public school? After all, some poor Gentile schmuck might see a circumcised penis in the shower after gym class and freak out.

 

[Luke T.]

If anything the other way round. I think that large crosses and jewish skull-caps were already banned; this law defines the muslim headscarf as a religious symbol.

Going from bad to worse.

 

[Luke T.]

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Luke, how are you going to assimilate people who view the indigenous culture as making sluts and whores out of their daughters?

If they passed a law that said your daughter had to go to school nude, how would you feel?

 

[Nikk]

I really don't see the problem here.

A dress code has been imposed on schoolchildren.

So what!

The more impotent religious loonies are shown to be, the better!

ed.sp.

 

[Luke T.]

I get the impression that some people hate it when religion interferes with the state but not the other way around. One way street.

 

[Luke T.]

It's unbelievable anyone could have a problem with a child wearing too much, and is trying to force them to go against their beliefs, and this will somehow make them fell any warmth toward their society. "Oh, thank you so much for making me feel naked!"

Like I said, this feeds right into the hands of the extremists.

 

[DanishDynamite]

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Luke T.:

With respect to "the ease with which private schools can be established and the cost to parents and whether there would be any state funding" it reveals that private schools are already established and are of two types; state-funded and non-state-funded. With regard to "there might also be national graduation tests which any pupil in France would need to pass, no matter whether the pupil attended a public or private school," it depends on whether they attend a state-funded private school or a non-state-funded private school.

So there is nothing to prevent Muslim parents from yanking their kids out of public school and sending them to private school.

I'll take your word for it. (I'm lazy).

The question of course remains whether a fundie couple would have ever sent their child to public school before the ban.

It discriminates against religious people. And alienates them.

It discriminates no one. It sets a standard for school uniform in public schools.

Vanilla people. That's what this law wants. It wants people who are different out of sight.

It wants to make sure that no child is ostrazied for the clothing they wear. This has, to my knowledge, always been the main reason for school uniforms.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Luke T.:

It's unbelievable anyone could have a problem with a child wearing too much, and is trying to force them to go against their beliefs, and this will somehow make them fell any warmth toward their society. "Oh, thank you so much for making me feel naked!"

It is unbelievable that students in the US can't come to school naked, if they feel like it. Discrimination is everywhere.

Like I said, this feeds right into the hands of the extremists.

So you say. I doubt it.

 

[Luke T.]

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It wants to make sure that no child is ostrazied for the clothing they wear. This has, to my knowledge, always been the main reason for school uniforms.

Gee, baby, now that I can see your hair, I can't even tell you are a Muslim.