France Goes Nuts!

[Luke T.]

France Set To Bans Muslims From Wearing Headscarves In Schools

France now proposes to take its secularism a step further. Under legislation that yesterday passed its first stage in the French parliament, the government is seeking to ban the wearing of hijabs, or headscarves, by Muslim women attending state schools. Supporters of the ban say this is consistent with France's history of secular education. They point to the legislation's ban on other overt religious symbols, including Jewish skullcaps and crucifixes, as evidence of fairness. And they defend the ban on the grounds that it liberates women from the enforced veil of Islam.

Since the muslim women won't take off their scarves, they will be effectively isolated from mainstream society by this law.

Idiots.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

And they defend the ban on the grounds that it liberates women from the enforced veil of Islam.

And if a woman wishes to wear a scarf?

 

[Zep]

The Muslim and Jewish women are apparently openly defying this stupidity JOINTLY in the street, shoulder to shoulder.

Would that the same could be done in the Middle East...

 

[a_unique_person]

The Muslim and Jewish women are apparently openly defying this stupidity JOINTLY in the street, shoulder to shoulder.

Would that the same could be done in the Middle East...

Amen to that.

 

[Badger]

Since the muslim women won't take off their scarves, they will be effectively isolated from mainstream society by this law.

Idiots.

Who are the idiots you refer to? The people who refuse to remove their religious symbols, or the legislators?

I am not familiar with France. How are the christian clergy, such as nuns and priests dressed? Are they going in the slammer for wearing a white collar, or a habit?

It's their country, so I guess they can make whatever laws the majority of citizens will put up with, and those who disagree can either protest or leave.

It'll be interesting to keep an eye on this, anyway.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Isn't this "news" a bit old?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Woman are forbidden, in Islam, to show up her charms, therefore they have to cover up from head to toe.

Other reasons are to protect the honor, dignity, and personal safety of women in public.

It has a social role, not religious.

Middle Eastern feminists, especially those who were influenced by the West, often treat the veil as a symbol of oppression.

I guess if one was to read between the lines the veil and Hejab is suppose to stop Islamic men from lusting after a really hot babe.

 

[kevinsbikes]

Hey, I wear ugly clothes... I sure hope that Bush doesn't get any crazy ideas from the French and try to ban my closet offerings.

 

[Jon_in_london]

Isn't this "news" a bit old?

No, the thread you link to is from when they proposed the law. They passed it yesterday.

 

[iain]

Re: Re: France Goes Nuts!

I am not familiar with France. How are the christian clergy, such as nuns and priests dressed? Are they going in the slammer for wearing a white collar, or a habit?

As I understand it, the law only applies to children attending school. All religious symbols are included, I think, so Christian as well as Muslim.

I believe the problem the French are trying to tackle is the separation of the different ethnic groups from each other. The problem is that girls (many, though not all, of whom are forced to wear headscarves by their families) are then separated from society.

The French are very worried about muslims forming a separate sub-culture in France and not integrating. Whether this is a valid concern, or whether this rule is the best way to tackle it is another matter.

Certainly many muslim women in France support the new law.

I think people are being a little hasty in jumping around saying the French are crazy without understanding the problem they are trying to solve.

 

[richardm]

Re: Re: Re: France Goes Nuts!

As I understand it, the law only applies to children attending school.

That's right. The French have a strict separation of State and Religion. If you're in a State School, I think the argument goes, you should not be distinguishing yourself on a religious basis by wearing overt religious symbols.

 

[iain]

France Set To Bans Muslims From Wearing Headscarves In Schools



Since the muslim women won't take off their scarves, they will be effectively isolated from mainstream society by this law.

Idiots.

Metro newspaper, 11th Feb
The bill also has the support of one of the highest authorities in Sunni Islam - the grand sheikh of Egypt's al-Azhar mosque. Mohammed Sayed Tantawi said Muslim women could ignore the obligation to wear a headscarf if the law where they live banned it

 

[Darat]

Woman are forbidden, in Islam, to show up her charms, therefore they have to cover up from head to toe.

Other reasons are to protect the honor, dignity, and personal safety of women in public.

It has a social role, not religious.

Middle Eastern feminists, especially those who were influenced by the West, often treat the veil as a symbol of oppression.

I guess if one was to read between the lines the veil and Hejab is suppose to stop Islamic men from lusting after a really hot babe.

As you and Iain’s quote state this whole “covering up” issue is not a Koranic imperative, although many clerics try to say it is.

Am I against this law (if it is passed by the second chamber)? The simple answer is – no I think it is a valid law for a secular state to pass, however I also think it is a stupid law that serves no purpose.

The law is not only “aimed” at Muslims but at the religious symbols, the schools are not a private place but part of the state, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs and Christians can still wear whatever they like to and from school.

One question I have – does anyone know if this same principle is applied to all “state” activities, from the civil servants, to police and so on?

 

[Bottle or the Gun]

I guess if one was to read between the lines the veil and Hejab is suppose to stop Islamic men from lusting after a really hot babe.

I knew it was the women's fault!

 

[iain]

I knew it was the women's fault!

You ever doubted?

 

[Luke T.]

Re: Re: France Goes Nuts!

Who are the idiots you refer to? The people who refuse to remove their religious symbols, or the legislators?

The legislators.

 

[Luke T.]

Re: Re: Re: France Goes Nuts!

As I understand it, the law only applies to children attending school. All religious symbols are included, I think, so Christian as well as Muslim.

The separation of church and state goes both ways. The church should not be imposing itself on the state, and the state should not be imposing itself on the church.

Someone wearing a headscarf or crucifix, or whatever, to school is in no way an establishing of religion by the state!

I believe the problem the French are trying to tackle is the separation of the different ethnic groups from each other. The problem is that girls (many, though not all, of whom are forced to wear headscarves by their families) are then separated from society.

The French are very worried about muslims forming a separate sub-culture in France and not integrating. Whether this is a valid concern, or whether this rule is the best way to tackle it is another matter.

They are not separated from society at this time. They go to the same schools as everyone else. By passing this law, they will not remove their scarves. They will go to separate schools, thereby accomplishing the very thing the state is claiming it is trying to eliminate. And that is why I call them (the legislators) idiots. They are driving the muslims right into the open arms of extremists.

Certainly many muslim women in France support the new law.

I think people are being a little hasty in jumping around saying the French are crazy without understanding the problem they are trying to solve.

Not hasty at all. The outcome is entirely predictable.

 

[iain]

Re: Re: Re: Re: France Goes Nuts!

Not hasty at all. The outcome is entirely predictable.

I'm always curious about statements like this. You're not just saying that you think you are right, but that you are so obviously right that it's completely clear.

Given that the majority of French people (who, living in the country, you might think would have a reasonable grasp of the issues) disagree with you, as do most of the French politicians, are you claiming that
- you have some information that others don't.
or
- you are far more intelligent that everyone else, so you can see things they cannot.

In both cases, supplying evidence of said info/intellect would be handy.

Or, just maybe, things aren't as self-evident as you believe.

(Note : I'm not saying you're wrong in your assessment, just questioning the certainty of your prediction).

 

[Luke T.]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: France Goes Nuts!

I'm always curious about statements like this. You're not just saying that you think you are right, but that you are so obviously right that it's completely clear.

Given that the majority of French people (who, living in the country, you might think would have a reasonable grasp of the issues) disagree with you, as do most of the French politicians, are you claiming that
- you have some information that others don't.
or
- you are far more intelligent that everyone else, so you can see things they cannot.

In both cases, supplying evidence of said info/intellect would be handy.

Or, just maybe, things aren't as self-evident as you believe.

(Note : I'm not saying you're wrong in your assessment, just questioning the certainty of your prediction).

It is obvious because anyone who knows anything about religious convictions knows that people are not going to give up their religious practices just because the law says they must. They will become polarized and remove themselves from the society which has banned their religious practices. This will be a boon to the extremists within the muslim faith.

It is particularly stupid because the state is going after kids who are going to be taught very young that the society they live in doesn't like them.

Just look at America and how many home-schooled children are members of fundamentalist religions.

 

[iain]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: France Goes Nuts!

It is obvious because anyone who knows anything about religious convictions knows that people are not going to give up their religious practices just because the law says they must. They will become polarized and remove themselves from the society which has banned their religious practices. This will be a boon to the extremists within the muslim faith.

It is particularly stupid because the state is going after kids who are going to be taught very young that the society they live in doesn't like them.

Just look at America and how many home-schooled children are members of fundamentalist religions.

I agree that that is one likely outcome. I don't agree that it's obviously the only outcome. It might happen that way; it might not.

An alternative outcome is : there is initially vocal opposition, but over time that dies away and people just continue much as before. Muslims get on with life, just as jews and christians do, and girls stop wearing headscarves in schools. There are a few problems, but for every girl who wants to, there is another who is happy that she is no longer forced to.

I just feel that when I've thought something political/social was so obvious to be self-evident but many people disagree with me, it's always been a sign that I don't fully understand or appreciate the issue; even when I've turned out to have been right.