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France Goes Nuts!

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Luke T.:
Gee, baby, now that I can see your hair, I can't even tell you are a Muslim. :rolleyes:
Did you have a point?
 
Luke T. said:
I get the impression that some people hate it when religion interferes with the state but not the other way around. One way street.

The bulk of muslim immigrants to France come from North Africa and especially Algeria. In total they form 10% of the population. Algeria has suffered from a a very brutal civil war between Muslim fundamentalists and government forces both of whom appear to be complete sh#ts. This leaked over into France which experienced a series of bombings in the 90's associated with this movement and some of these Islamic guys are now involved in Al Q related activities.

So, religion already has interfered with the state - violently.
 
Nikk said:


The bulk of muslim immigrants to France come from North Africa and especially Algeria. In total they form 10% of the population. Algeria has suffered from a a very brutal civil war between Muslim fundamentalists and government forces both of whom appear to be complete sh#ts. This leaked over into France which experienced a series of bombings in the 90's associated with this movement and some of these Islamic guys are now involved in Al Q related activities.

So, religion already has interfered with the state - violently.

And by alienating Muslims even more, this will solve the problem how?
 
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DanishDynamite said:
Luke T. : Did you have a point?

Taking the scarf off a Muslim girl isn't going to make it any less obvious that she is a Muslim. If there is a problem with Muslim children being ostracized, then it only proves my point that assimilation needs to be about teaching tolerance of those who are different.

edited to add: And dress codes are designed so that poor students don't stick out, not different ones. You can hide someone's Muslim background in only two ways. Get rid of them, or limit their speech.

edited to fix vBull problem
 
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Luke T.:
Taking the scarf off a Muslim girl isn't going to make it any less obvious that she is a Muslim.
Why not?
If there is a problem with Muslim children being ostracized, then it only proves my point that assimilation needs to be about teaching tolerance of those who are different.
Uhh...no it doesn't. There would be no otracisation if everyone looked equal.
edited to add: And dress codes are designed so that poor students don't stick out, not different ones. You can hide someone's Muslim background in only two ways. Get rid of them, or limit their speech.
Crapola. They would look the same as everyone else. If they felt a need to expound on their parent's instillment of religion into their own heads, they are so allowed. But that would be up to themselves.
 
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DanishDynamite said:
Luke T.:Why not?
Uhh...no it doesn't. There would be no otracisation if everyone looked equal.
Crapola. They would look the same as everyone else. If they felt a need to expound on their parent's instillment of religion into their own heads, they are so allowed. But that would be up to themselves.

You can't be serious. You think all it takes for everyone to get along is to look the same?!?!?

Have you been reading this topic? Better yet, take a walk over to the Philosophy and Religion section of this forum and spend a few minutes bathing in the anti-religious hatred there.
 
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Luke T.:
You can't be serious. You think all it takes for everyone to get along is to look the same?!?!?
I'm saying that children of a particular indoctrinating faith won't be forced to wear odd garments which will make them stand out.
Have you been reading this topic? Better yet, take a walk over to the Philosophy and Religion section of this forum and spend a few minutes bathing in the anti-religious hatred there.
The religious or anti-religious friction is exactly the reason that this law is a superb idea.
 
Luke T. said:


And by alienating Muslims even more, this will solve the problem how?

But does it alienate them? From memory 40% of muslim women support this policy. Some girls are currently pressured into wearing the scarf by males.

The battle cry of the French revolution was liberté, egalité, fraternité; where's the fraternité in religious symbols emphasising cultural differences?
 
Originally posted by Nikk
But does it alienate them? From memory 40% of muslim women support this policy. Some girls are currently pressured into wearing the scarf by males.

It's the other 60% I'm concerned with, though I support the rights of the first 40% not to wear the scarves if they don't want to.

Originally posted by Nikk
The battle cry of the French revolution was liberté, egalité, fraternité; where's the fraternité in religious symbols emphasising cultural differences?

The freedom to wear religious symbols emphasising cultural differences would be the liberté part. Being able to choose any religious symbol would be egalité. Fraternité would be the respect other French people show by allowing them to do it.

Equality and freedom are not won by forcing everyone to be the same. Equality and freedom is allowing everyone the same freedom to make choices, choices that might lead them to become different.
 
Mycroft:
The freedom to wear religious symbols emphasising cultural differences would be the liberté part. Being able to choose any religious symbol would be egalité. Fraternité would be the respect other French people show by allowing them to do it.

Equality and freedom are not won by forcing everyone to be the same. Equality and freedom is allowing everyone the same freedom to make choices, choices that might lead them to become different.
It is a school uniform! This is, to my knowledge, legal in the US as well as in France.
 
I don't think I have much to add: most of my points were made in my initial post. (which seems to have slipped under the radar...)

If it helps: doing this will PROTECT muslims, Luke. Like the MSNBC article said, there have been cases where Muslims who were not wearing the headscarves were assaulted BY THEIR FELLOW MUSLIMS.

Kind of hard to attack someone for not wearing something when no one else is wearing it either.

And as was said before: this applies to ALL religions. So no, the Muslims are not being singled out.

Once again Luke: do you think it's unfair that students in the US can't attend public school wearing bikinis? If their religion demanded it?
 
DanishDynamite said:
Mycroft:It is a school uniform! This is, to my knowledge, legal in the US as well as in France.

It's legal, but in practice people are allowed to wear headscarved and yarmulkes.

Interesting irony here. When Disneyland Paris first opened, French people went ape over the fact that wearing a costume is a condition of employment.
 
Mycroft said:


It's the other 60% I'm concerned with, though I support the rights of the first 40% not to wear the scarves if they don't want to.

Fair point. But sometimes people need to be rescued from ignorance. There is by the way no "right" involved here, merely a desire. No one has suggested that the decision is unconstitutional


The freedom to wear religious symbols emphasising cultural differences would be the liberté part. Being able to choose any religious symbol would be egalité. Fraternité would be the respect other French people show by allowing them to do it.

Equality and freedom are not won by forcing everyone to be the same. Equality and freedom is allowing everyone the same freedom to make choices, choices that might lead them to become different.

Anti-clericalism has a long history in France and the liberty spoken of includes the liberty not to have your mind moulded into a belief in fantasies at an early age.

It is difficult to be equal if you, as a woman, are strongly influenced by a religion which does not seem to believe in your equality ( a fairly new concept for us in the West of course ).

As for fraternité my point is that, to the French, a scarf symbolises that you are setting yourself apart from the whole culture.

None of this would matter of course if France did not have a poorly integrated large Muslim minority. Immigrant religious loonies and their practices can be tolerated as long as they only impose themselves on consenting adults but when they seem to be creating an alien subculture then this is cause for concern.

Whether this is the "right" decision is impossible to say but I don't see that anyone's "rights" are threatened.
 
I am totally in favour of the ban, which is actually almost as old as the French revolution.

In France church and state are strictly separated (laicite). In public institutions that are state funded no prominent religious symbols are allowed.

Why? If you are a pupil or a student, you are just that. The French do not want to seperate people on the grounds of religion or politics. Thus teachers are also not allowed to wear these things either. What you do after school thats your own matter, but within school grounds it's not.

You wouldn't believe how much this touches the core of the self-image of the French. I also didn't initially, being myself a German.

As for the Muslim girls. Currently fundamentalistic Islam is growing in the sub-urbs. This forces the girls to comply to the dressing rules of their faith (actually of the faith of the extremists). School becomes more and more a place where young Muslim ladies can evade these pressures. The French will not accept that peoples faith is forced into schools. Well, one could say that "laicite" is forced onto the Muslims by that. But that's how the French have made their laws. Treat everybody equal. A nun in her habitat (sp?) will not be able to teach in a state funded school. Without it she will.

I believe it is highly misleading to see a veil as an expression of faith by the girls. Ten years ago veils were no issue. They were barely seen anywhere.

Last week I saw a TV-feature on ARTE (joint German-French TV) about the suburbs in Paris. Quite impressive....

The girls (15-17 years old) complained of being forced to wear veils. Otherwise they are threatened, beaten up, raped or even worse. Look here or here .

There were also interviews with guys. The youger ones (15-20 years old) didn't want to be interviewed. But there were several 30 year old men. The vast majority of them (I know it is not representative) stated that this has been a very recent development. One guy stated that he is in favour of banning veils in school because it is the only time that the girls can be girls.
 
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Luke T. said:


If they passed a law that said your daughter had to go to school nude, how would you feel?

Firstly, thats ridiculous.

Secondly, I wouldnt go to a country in which children go to school naked in the first goddam motherfecking case!

Thridly, even if I did go to a country were children go to school naked I would take care to send my child to a private school were she didnt have to be naked or Id leave the goddam mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ country and ◊◊◊◊ off home!
 
bignickel said:
I don't think I have much to add: most of my points were made in my initial post. (which seems to have slipped under the radar...)

If it helps: doing this will PROTECT muslims, Luke. Like the MSNBC article said, there have been cases where Muslims who were not wearing the headscarves were assaulted BY THEIR FELLOW MUSLIMS.

Kind of hard to attack someone for not wearing something when no one else is wearing it either.

This law will not solve that problem. When they go home, they will put the scarves back on. And if there are girls who are not wearing them and being attacked for it, those attacks will now take place outside the view of the public.

Once again Luke: do you think it's unfair that students in the US can't attend public school wearing bikinis? If their religion demanded it?

But you see, here we have a problem of the state thinking the girls are wearing TOO MUCH! To the Muslims, it is as if you were being told your daughter had to go to school in a bikini and wasn't allowed to wear pants.
 
Nikk said:
Fair point. But sometimes people need to be rescued from ignorance. There is by the way no "right" involved here, merely a desire. No one has suggested that the decision is unconstitutional

"Rescued from ignorance?" And you are the expert on who needs to be rescued?

Some Muslims think you are ignorant and should be "rescued" and made to dress in an offensive manner to you. How would that make you feel?
 
DanishDynamite said:
Mycroft:It is a school uniform! This is, to my knowledge, legal in the US as well as in France.

Students are not banned from wearing religious symbols in our schools. They can wear a crucifix, or star of David, or yamulke, or headscarf, or the colorful knit hat some American Muslims like to wear, or whatever.

Where there are school uniform policies, it only relates to the color of their pants and shirts. For girls, there may be a limit put on how short their skirts can be. And there is the usual policy about foul language on a T-shirt in most places.
 
Well, being French myself, I'll try to explain a few details in my miserable english (which gets worse and worse every day :D). I hope you will understand a few sentences however...

Some fundamentalist groups are tying to test the resistance of the French Republic. More and more male students (or employees) refuse to take oral exams (or punishments) from women. Some women get certificates (produced to oblige them) which allow them not being at certain lessons, such as biology, civics, sexual and physical education... In public hospitals, some men refuse to allow their wives to be examined by male doctors, and corridors are used as prayer rooms. People try to gather in accordance with their religion. Religious frictions are threatening in french suburbs.

You have to understand that the French want to be a united people. They fear becoming a juxtaposition of foreign communities without common identity.

Most of the french politicians were initially against such a law. A commission headed by Bernard Stasi, after 6 months of study and 120 hearings that collected testimony from all concerned people, made a big report about those issues. The commission members, who were initially against the law too, all changed their mind after their inquiry. In addition, some parliamentary reports were made : they came to the same conclusions. The French Republic is in danger.

More and more women are forced to war veils. That's why 49% of the french muslim women agree with this law (while 43% disagree). They want to be free at least in one place : the free secular public school. The French wants misogyny to keep outside the schools.

They also think that public school has to transcend ethnic, religious and politic determinism, in order to make from each pupil a free french citizen. Religious influences must not enter the school. Of course, liberty of religion is guaranteed, but religion must not be a factor of division or segregation.

Wearing a veil is a voluntary separation from other pupils. It's the sign that you asser your identity, that your beliefs come first. But school, according to the French, isn't a place where you should assert your identity with conspicuous symbols. It's a place where you are supposed to receive culture and education. The teacher wants to teach to pupils, not to followers, nor to living religious emblems. Conspicuous symbols creates a harmful climate, in which religious assertions interfere with secular education. It's no good for a serene education. Wearing a veil is like wearing a flag on your head. It's disturbing.

By the way, at school you have to remove your cap, your hat, and anything that covers your head. Of course, those women say that they feel naked. But what will you answer if one day they demand to wear a burka at school ? Moreover, they have to swim for physical education anyway, and they won't be able to swim with their clothes... But they actually get false medical certificates...
 
Pad, I am glad we finally have a Frenchman on here. Most other European countries have been represented for some time, but France seems to have been noticeably absent. Maybe you can do something about all the Danes...

:D

Anyway, I think what France is experiencing is what any country that has a sudden, large influx of immigrants experiences. Culture shock.

In America, we have experienced at least three such periods. The Irish immigration, the freeing of the slaves, and the Mexican immigration. Each era was accompanied with a lot of problems.

We made a lot of mistakes, but we got through it.

I don't see why a headscarf is distracting. I can see where proselytyzing would be.

We have quite a few muslims here in the U.S., and they wear the scarves. They look rather exotic, but they don't distract me to the point where I forget what I came to the grocery store for. And I would think the mulim girls' fellow students would get accustomed to the sight.

Your problems have nothing to do with the scarves, and won't even be begun to be solved by banning them.

Those girls who are happy to take them off at school will still have to put them back on the second they leave school property.

I just don't see what good this law will do. It's like putting a band-aid on your knee for a gunshot wound to the chest.
 

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