For IchneumanWasp, Geoff's neutral monism clarified.

But the key point -- and this was known to Plato -- is that mathematics has no ontological implications.
How did he 'know'? Should we substitute "had faith"?

BTW, that's the first statement I recall seeing from you that addresses the spirit of the discussion.



Paul:
A materialist who understood his position would no longer be a materialist.... :D :D

and
Geoff:
Re neutral monism; I can't seem to differentiate it from StimpyStuff. :)
 
Stimpystuff is something Hammegk made up in response to Stimpson J. Cat's proposal for scientific epistemology:
Definition 1: The term "real" is defined to refer to everything which has any kind of effect on something else which is real. This self-referential definition is completed with the definition that I am real.

Axiom 1: Everything real can be described according to some set of consistent logical rules (Naturalism).

Axiom 2: The natural laws describing real events can be determined through observation of the effects those events have.

Definition 2: The term "physical" is defined to refer to anything which is, in principle, observable. If axioms 1 and 2 are true, then everything which can meaningfully be said to exist is physical.

~~ Paul
 
How did he 'know'?

Because he, unlike you, was willing to engage in logic and rationality.

Should we substitute "had faith"?

No, we shouldn't.

BTW, that's the first statement I recall seeing from you that addresses the spirit of the discussion.

So we add "poor memory" to your list of demonstrated cognitive failings. Surprises me not at all.
 
So, you mean you define the number system in symmetry mathematics in terms of the addition of infinite sequences -- and now you're not sure what "addition" means?

:boggle:

And the circle is complete. :D


I do wish we had some of the very old posts still, all these problems and more were pointed out to Geoff back in 2001 and early 2002...
 
Because he, unlike you, was willing to engage in logic and rationality.
I see. By faith and rationality Plato was able to conclude that mathematics is not ontological. You accept that as what? Truth? Axiom?

It's actually a rather interesting question to consider.

So we add "poor memory" to your list of demonstrated cognitive failings. Surprises me not at all.
Yup, everything here is in decline. May you live forever.



Geoff: re StimpyStuff and Paul's post
Definition 2: The term "StimpyStuff" is defined to refer to anything which is, in principle, observable. If axioms 1 and 2 are true, then everything which can meaningfully be said to exist is StimpyStuff.
 
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It's actually a rather interesting question to consider.

Not all that interesting. Definitions have no ontological implications, since they're purely about the names we choose to apply to things. Math is, literally, all about definitions and their consequences.

I can define a "florglam" as a beast with the foreparts of a lion, the wings of a bat, and the rear end of a 1976 Honda Accord. Implicit in this definition is the statement that all florglams have the foreparts of a lion, or alternatively that the set of things with the foreparts of a lion is a superset of the set of florglams.

This says nothing about whether such a beast actually exists -- the mere act of writing a definition has no ontological consequences.
 
Posted by Paul:

I don't understand the math.

Do you agree that in normal maths there is nothing to represent everything? +Infinity certainly doesn't do the job. If you agree, then all you have to understand about the math is that it is possible to postulate a system of mathematics where the Zero is thought of as everything rather than nothing. The wider consequences of doing so are not immediately relevant right now, my system doesn't depend on them - although this may not be true of the cosmology based on this math (which I only just grasp anyway).

It's just normal maths with the one thing bolted on, so it shouldn't be that difficult to understand. It's the general concept you need, not the fine details. The general concept is easy. It is the other stuff that's hard.

I don't understand this:

b) What “mind” is.

The mathematical objects of physics are designed to correspond directly to entities in the physical world. So I am making it clear here that I am NOT talking about the same sort of mathemetisation that Husserl is refering to. Additionally, I am explicitly specifying that with the help of the newly defined Zero (which, by becoming "everything" instead of nothing can provide a sort of "beingness" within the system which does not occur in normal mathematics) this 0-mathematical object, including the relationships between the Zero and the complex 0-math object, is capable of representing the entire mind-matter system within itself, in a completely neutral self-referential system. Nothingness is the abscence of Being. Everythingness is the totality of Being. So we have replaced a Zero as not-being with a Zero as Being.

Now - the first sentence:

Whilst the parts of the 0-math neutral entity (0MNE) do not directly correspond to physical reality, they do indirectly correspond.

The 0-math entity is not a mathematisation of physical objects. So there is nothing in there that is immediately identifiable as directly corresponding to specific physical objects. But since physical objects are somehow "embedded" in this 0-mathematical object, there are parts of it which must in some way correspond to physical objects - but in a way that transcends the mind/matter distinction. This is compatible with David Bohm's implicate/explicate interpretation of QM, BTW.

Next sentence:

In other words, there are parts of the 0MNE which correspond to physical brains and there are parts of the 0MNE which correspond to other parts of physical reality.

This should be straightforward enough. Having established there is a relationship between parts of the 0MNE and what we call "Physical reality" it is obvious that some parts of the 0MNE correspond to the bits of physical reality we call brains and some correspond to bits that we call keyboards, etc....

Next sentence:

There are also internal causal relationships between those different parts i.e. the exact state of the part which corresponds to physical brains is partially determined by the state of other parts of the 0MNE via normal empirical causation.

Since the whole of the physical world is embedded in the 0MNE, it can be said that the state of some parts of it is causally affecting the states of other parts of it, exactly corresponding to the way that objects in the physical world cause other things in the physical world. In other words, when we see one physical thing causing another physical thing, there is a corresponding chain of causation occuring in the 0MNE. This, therefore, includes the whole of materialists conception of the process of perception, from photon leaving object to resulting brain state. What this description so far doesn't include is any consciousness or subjectivity. So far, the brain could belong to a p-zombie. There is no "mind".

Last sentence:

What we call “mind” is the result of the relationship between Zero and the part of the 0MNE which corresponds to a brain.

The Zero has come to represent a "being" (everything), as opposed to "non-being" (nothing). As you probably realised by now, the thing which is missing from the materialist picture is not mind-stuff, but beingness itself. You do not need to add any complexity to the P-zombie to make it conscious. All you have to do is "switch the light on". To continue the analogy, the Zero is the missing switch. We now have an additional relationship to play with. Just as the different parts of the 0MNE are inter-related in complex ways, there is also another relationship - the one between the 0MNE and the Zero/Beingness. So the relationship you have added hasn't added any "things". There is no mind-stuff. Yet there is now space in the model for a description of mind which accounts for the perceived difference between mind and matter in an intelligible way. Minds are tightly bound to brains, but they aren't "brain processes". They are the relationship between brain processes and the newly defined Zero.

If anything is unclear, please take it one sentence at a time. Explaining it to you in this way is a very important exercise for me in trying to improve the system myself and learning what things are particularly difficult for other people to understand.

Geoff
 
drkitten

Perhaps you feel that our postings here have no ontological implications. I choose otherwise, but do agree that math & logic per se do not depend on ontology, only on the ability within a universe to think.

Will the universe neglect to obey physics (which is math & logic coupled with observation) if all thought ceases?

Define florglams as you wish. :)

I suspect, as usual, that meant nothing to you. :(
 
Posted by Stimpson J. Cat:

Definition 1: The term "real" is defined to refer to everything which has any kind of effect on something else which is real. This self-referential definition is completed with the definition that I am real.

This definition of what is real is compatible with my position.

Axiom 1: Everything real can be described according to some set of consistent logical rules (Naturalism).

This is not neccesary for my position. But it isn't ruled out either. The problem here is whether or not the Zero is passive or active, and if it is active, in what ways is it active. I haven't specified any of those things, quite deliberately. I don't think they can be resolved by philosophical argument. That comes down to religious belief of one sort or another. Stimpy, a buddhist and an intelligent Christian could probably all assent to my system if they understood the system. But ask them about the properties of the Zero and they'll give you very different answers. My system "brackets" the need to answer these questions at this point. It leaves them open to be determined in other ways at other times.

My system is naturalism/anti-naturalism neutral. Stimpy's is explicitly naturalistic.

Axiom 2: The natural laws describing real events can be determined through observation of the effects those events have.

So by observing the empirical world we can learn the laws which govern the material world. We have an additional difficulty when we start talking about natural laws because of QM. There are different ways of interpreting QM with respect to lawfullness and causality. So I can't accept Axiom 2 in this form. I can accept

Axiom 2: The empirical laws describing describing real events can be determined through observation of the effects those events have.

Stimpy's version has begun to conflate "natural" and "observable". He's going to end up...

Definition 2: The term "physical" is defined to refer to anything which is, in principle, observable.

...turning naturalism into physicalism.

If axioms 1 and 2 are true, then everything which can meaningfully be said to exist is physical.

Stimpys position confuses three things: Realism, physicalism and naturalism. For Stimpy, they might as well be the same thing. The same does not apply to neutral monism.

Geoff
 
I'm still not grokking the link here between the problem and the proposed solution.

What is consciousness?

Zero is everything.

?????????????????????????

I'll give him this: the Theory of Everything whackjobs are much more entertaining than the Fundy Christian whackjobs.
 
This is not neccesary for my position. But it isn't ruled out either. The problem here is whether or not the Zero is passive or active, and if it is active, in what ways is it active.

Category error. The "Zero" isn't a thing, but a mathematical label.
 
Do you agree that in normal maths there is nothing to represent everything?

Actually, there is -- but you're right that it's not the +infinity.

The usual symbol to denote everything is a capital Omega, or sometimes a funny script capital U, which basically represents the universe of discourse and all subsets of that universe.

If you agree, then all you have to understand about the math is that it is possible to postulate a system of mathematics where the Zero is thought of as everything rather than nothing. The wider consequences of doing so are not immediately relevant right now, my system doesn't depend on them.

There are no wider consequences. "Zero" only makes sense in the context of some group operations, typically addition. What does addition mean in your system?

Tell me what addition means, and I'll happily tell you the corresponding "traditional mathematical" formulation for what you call "addition," or else demonstrate that your proposed meaning doesn't work for some well-founded reason (probably a violation of one or more group properties).

I can easily come up with a group structure, by the way, in which OMEGA plays the role of a zero element. But it has no interesting consequences....




The mathematical objects of physics are designed to correspond directly to entities in the physical world. So I am making it clear here that I am NOT talking about the same sort of mathemetisation that Husserl is refering to.

Here I explicitly disagree -- you've already stated that you're drawing cosmological consequences from your mathematical axiomization. That's exactly the sort of thing you were complaining earlier about Husserl doing, as in --

Additionally, I am explicitly specifying that with the help of the newly defined Zero (which, by becoming "everything" instead of nothing can provide a sort of "beingness" within the system which does not occur in normal mathematics)

... so nothing is capable of "being" without this particular object?

Horsefeathers.
 
Hammegk,

It's interesting that you look at this system and find it suspiciously close to stimpy's slightly odd physicalism. Historically, neutral monism has often been accused of being suspiciously like idealism, but only very rarely has it been accused of being suspiciously like physicalism. The system is deliberately designed to walk the line between the two of them, and if materialists are worried that it's too much like idealism and idealists are worried that it's too much like materialism then I think I'm doing something right. It means I'm getting the "neutral" bit right.

Geoff
 
Ed, how I hate this kind of crap. How is it that I personally could have a philosophy that I don't understand?

I'm not sure he was talking about you. You're one of the few who has at least admitted there may be a problem with ontological materialism. You may not have embraced any of the alternatives, but you understand materialism at least enough to keep it at arms length. Many others have no idea there is any kind of problem, and I think it probably is because many of them don't understand their own philosophy. Plenty of people don't understand their own philosophy. Lot's of Christians don't really understand Christianity, for example.

Why does anyone think they are going to find a logical solution to the question of what the (supposedly) unitary existent actually is?

If they don't look, they certainly won't find one, that's for sure.
 
Hammegk,

.... It means I'm getting the "neutral" bit right.

Geoff
Hmm, maybe; although I accuse Stimpy of pretending not making a choice negates the need to choose, I similarly suspect you have just moved the choice back a notch.

Mind-stuff? or Body-stuff? One takes one's choice, sfaik. :)
 
Geoff said:
Stimpys position confuses three things: Realism, physicalism and naturalism. For Stimpy, they might as well be the same thing. The same does not apply to neutral monism.
Stimpy was proposing a scientific epistemology, not a metaphysic. I would not evaluate it by comparing it to various ontologies. Hammegk is bothered by his using the words real and physical, but Stimpy's point is to attempt to define the words in a way that makes no metaphysical assumptions. If that bothers people, they can use other terms.

I presume people understand that if one day we discover the "true metaphysic," words such as real and physical will take on specific meanings and others will be discarded. There is no reason to be bothered by restricting their meanings while discussing the issues, as long as the definitions are clear.

~~ Paul
 
Geoff said:
I'm not sure he was talking about you. You're one of the few who has at least admitted there may be a problem with ontological materialism. You may not have embraced any of the alternatives, but you understand materialism at least enough to keep it at arms length. Many others have no idea there is any kind of problem, and I think it probably is because many of them don't understand their own philosophy. Plenty of people don't understand their own philosophy. Lot's of Christians don't really understand Christianity, for example.
I think more often than not someone is cramming ontologies down other peoples' throats and then pointing out the problems.

If they don't look, they certainly won't find one, that's for sure.
Been looking for 3,000 years with no luck yet. The problem is that the best we can do is list the attributes of the world we see around us. Any two ontologies that cover all the attributes are going to be equivalent, modulo their vocabulary. I think that is why you're embracing "neutral monism," because you have realized that materialism and idealism are equivalent.

~~ Paul
 
Hammegk said:
Mind-stuff? or Body-stuff? One takes one's choice, sfaik.
I'm all up with making a choice. Now what was the experiment we were going to run to distinguish between the two? I forget.

~~ Paul
 

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