For IchneumanWasp, Geoff's neutral monism clarified.

Well, given that your attempt to defend this position ended up being a grand tour of just about every metaphysical position under the sun........

NO.

You not only don't understand your own position, you don't even know what your own position is, cyborg. Apart from armwaving, that is :)

So in other words...

NO.

Thanks for that.
 
No, your attempt to defend your claim wasn't a grand tour of all every metaphysical position under the sun?

No, you avoided the basic question by trying to show off how many metaphysical terms you could muster. You were determined to poison the well by shoehorning me into these various catergories you told me I occupied.

I'm not impressed, neither was anyone else.
 
Geoff said:
Well, unless you want to be a dualist, some sort of reduction is going to have to take place.
It was a joke.

So you have to choose again. What's more it is going to be either a lop-sided reduction which ends up marginalising either mind or matter, or it's going to be a symmetrical reduction which allows them equal status. Also, my reduction leaves you with precisely nothing (or Being itself, but without anything to be). The others leave you trying to explain "where the matter comes from" or "where mind comes from".
Roight. Leaving me with undefined nothingness is surely better than leaving me with actual questions.

Geoff, you've eliminated the metaphysical angst by deciding that you're comfortable with nothing. The emperor has no clothes. Then again, clothing is way overrated.

~~ Paul
 
Yes. Or maybe magical-sounding philosophy.

I'm going with the philosophical sounding magic. He has the practical example (-1) + (-1) = -2 in there. By his definition, the number -1 is the set of all numbers except 1. Note that the number '1' is missing from both of the arguments of the addition. But it is present in the answer where '2' has to be missing. How does he get '1' into the sum? How does he know that '2' must be removed? We don't know because he doesn't tell us what he is doing. My guess is that he doesn't know it himself and he just takes it for granted that the arithmetic works out in the end. This is the "magic".

The very concepts of addition and subtraction seem to have new meanings under this system. "Addition", as you've described it, depends on starting with nothing (the smallest possible value) and as you add things to it the number gets larger.

I described it for natural numbers. The addition of real numbers can't be done the way I presented (since a real number does not have an immediate successor). I just wanted to keep the example simple. I am very open for different definitions of addition, but my gut feeling is that the author doesn't actually have one. And the other gut feeling is that if he went through the trouble of giving a formal definition for it, it would be inconsistent. Because he includes +oo and -oo as numbers without giving them any special treatment.

I can understand why somebody well versed in normal mathematics might find this system both very strange and practically useless for nearly all of the things we use normal numbers for. But if we are going to be fair on the author, shouldn't we judge his system by its usefullness for dealing with the cosmological problems he claims it is usefull for?

I would guess that mathematicians are much more open for the possibilities of defining new mathematical systems than most people. After all, using non-standard definitions for numbers and operators are a standard fare for them. I [I don't count myself as a mathematician, I'm a computational logician] use modulo artihmetics almost every day and handle lattices and partially ordered sets regularly. Using standard notation in new ways doesn't faze me.

But there's one thing that I need to have before I can do that. I need to know how the symbols are defined and what are the rules that I can use to manipulate them. Because that is what mathematics is all about. Mathematics is just a fancy name for coming up with strings of symbols and rules saying how we can manipulate them. If the rules are not defined, then it is not mathematics at all. And "symmetric maths" fails here.

However, if the system can indeed by applied to cosmological problems and make them less intractable, then we would have gained something.

The applications are possible only if the system is well-defined and consistent. Well, in some specific application domains you can get away even with a bit of inconsistency [*] as long as the system is robust, but if you want to do mathematics, then your definitions have to be correct.

[*] An example of such specific application domain is an inference engine that combines data from many different real-world sources. It is possible that different databases have conflicting definitions for something. For example, a person might have two different addresses in the databases, one correct and one old. The system should be able to produce relevant conclusions for those queries that don't involve the data conflicts.
 
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Strictly speaking no - I am one of the Administrators but I am part of the Moderating Team - why do you ask?

You seem to be attacking the person and not the arguments. To do that, there is a flame wars section.
 
You seem to be attacking the person and not the arguments. To do that, there is a flame wars section.

The Flame War section is not for attacking other Members.

You are also wrong regarding you statement t that I seem to be attacking the person and not the arguments. I have not been attacking the person- he has made claims which are simply not true and I have pointed out that those claims are not true.

For instance he stated that:

....My own position is the result of long process of elimination of other positions and of inductive evidence from a wide variety of sources, most of them sciences....

This is not true - as I showed with my links he arrived at his beliefs after experiencing "supernatural events". If that is an attack on the person then we can never state that something someone has claimed is right or wrong. Perhaps you are confused because he was discussing his personal beliefs and I pointed out he misrepresented them so you assumed that was an attack on the person? If so please re-read my "attack" and you will find I was challenging the facts as Geoff presented them.

Now I have made comments such as :

I do wish we had some of the very old posts still, all these problems and more were pointed out to Geoff back in 2001 and early 2002...

That is very relevant and I believe totally acceptable when someone is trying to rehash the same discredited arguments. That is why I made this post:

We've been through all this before. Geoff wouldn't it be much quicker to get to the point where you say "the maths don't matter" rather then getting people to jump through hoops that when you get down to it you aren't really interested in?

ETA - As support for the above:

the March 2003, 10:34 PM - THREE YEARS AGO

...snip...

Are you denying the long series of posts regarding the mathematics of your theory of "zero". Remember your claim that "negative-Infinity + positive-Infinity = zero", and the explanations from several people as to why this is incorrect? Are you denying that eventually you changed your position to "the maths doesn't really matter, it's the principle that's important"?

...snip...

To support my assertions that this was ground that has already been covered. Again that is not attacking the person - it is a recounting of actual facts.

The nearest I have come to "attacking the person" is to state that he is debating in a dishonest way, I would defend that by saying I did support the comment and it was directly related to what he was posting in this thread.

I certainly have not said something like "What is the point in you existing? None, as far as I can see. You're like a mosquito." which I would take as attacking the person.
 
It might be more convenient to refer to it as Being, but I am trying to stress the critical important of the relationship between Being and nothing. Partly I am doing this because I want to reach out to atheists (and even materialists) instead of just people who would be likeley to accept that "Being" is the root of everything. The atheists would likely say "where did this Being come from?" By refering to it as nothing, which is, I believe, perfectly legitimate, I hopefully avoid them asking that question. Jean-Paul Sartre was the person who most clearly stated that the root of all Being was absolute nothingness, and Sartre was most definately an atheist.

Yours and Sartre´s arguments make no sense. If nothingness does not exist, then how something can come from nothing?. It goes against logic.



My position isn't the same as that of Spinoza, but it's directly descended from it. There are many things in common. So, sort of. But not exactly.

According to Spinoza both mental and physical objects are different expressions of the infinite substance that encompasses everything . However they are not opposites, they do not cancel out, they are just two different ways to explain the same the thing.

Although Spinoza is not my favourite philosopher and I don´t even agree with what he says, his argument makes sense. If you want to explain your theories, they must be logical and consistent.

I´d like to hear your answer to the question of how the mind-body problem disappears. In Spinoza´s scenario, this would be true, in the sense that they really do not depend on each other. But in your scenario, where the mental and the physical seem to cancel out, the problem persists.
 
Yours and Sartre´s arguments make no sense. If nothingness does not exist, then how something can come from nothing?. It goes against logic.

I know that's what it looks like....but in another way it's sort of the obvious "last piece of the puzzle." It's like we've got these last two loose ends, and however counter-intuitive it might seem, when you put those two loose ends together, suddenly everything else slips into place. It's exactly the same as verse two of the tao te ching:

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Lao Tse is the father of all neutral monisms.

I´d like to hear your answer to the question of how the mind-body problem disappears.

I thought I'd explained that in the opening post, but I guess it's too incomprehensible still.

The mind-body problem doesn't so much "disappear" as "never appears in the first place". The crux of the mind-body problem is that we appear to be missing the "thing" which plays the role of "the subject" or "the soul" or "the root of consciousness". Pretty much everybody wants to reject the idea of "mind-stuff". Not many people want to introduce any non-physical things into the picture. The reason this avoids the problem is that it manages to specify what it is which fills this role, but it does so in a way which doesn't introduce any new "things" - since nothing isn't a thing. It allows a comprehensible distinction to be drawn between mind and matter without postulating any fundamentally new entities - all it does is claim an identity between two "things", neither of which are actually things (The totality of existence and the abscence of existence).

It's also the oldest solution in the book to this problem, and has been given to us in mythology via the symbol of the ouroborous, the snake which eats its own tail:

http://www.guidancetochangeyourlife.com/graphics/oroborous.gif

All I can say is try to think about it intuitively. Given the nature of the problems we are trying to solve, and the failure of all the more obvious ways of approaching the problem, we are going to need something rather out of the ordinary. But when you get used to the idea, it is simple, elegant and best of all it solves the problems. Somehow you've got to "bootstrap reality", or concoct something out of nothing. But if nothing and everything are the same then the problems melt away.....how could their be a more parismonious, more beautifully balanced answer than this one?
 
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Mary,

If you want a less mystical take on it:

http://www.hedweb.com/witherall/zero.htm

This "Zero ontology", an interpretation of the void which treats it as the summation of all substantial reality (or vice versa - an interpretation of substantial reality in terms of the void), appears as either unintelligible or highly counter-intuitive from the perspective of our everyday worldview. We are used to dealing with substantial things, and we tend to think of 0, or the void, as the absence of things rather than their ultimate "summation". But this may be a problem of language rather than intelligibility. We do not have the right terms at present to describe the great totality of the world, considered as a single unit when all of its properties are taken into account. Such an entity is beyond our experience, and certainly beyond our powers of manipulation. When modern physics tells us that the ultimate value of the conserved constants of the physical universe is exactly zero, or as Pearce puts it:

"In the Universe as a whole, the conserved constants (electric charge, angular momentum, mass-energy) add up to/cancel out to exactly 0. There isn't any net electric charge or angular momentum. The world's positive mass-energy is exactly cancelled out by its negative gravitational potential energy. (Provocatively, cryptically, elliptically, "nothing" exists)"

our normal conceptual resources seem to stall. Does this really mean that the substance of the world is not really substantial at all, or is it a bizarre mathematical trick which should be interpreted in some other way? It is important to understand, of course, that there really is some positive mass-energy in certain parts of the world. That is not being denied. When it is said that the quantity of mass-energy is Zero, this is only true for the world as a whole. We think that mass-bearing material things exist because we are located in a particular part of the world where they appear to exist. Only when we have a perspective on the whole world can we see that they are effectively wiped out in the overall structure of things.
 
Mary,

If you want a less mystical take on it:

Does it mean your take is mystical?

What is it that YOU are saying?. You don't seem to be saying anything new. Tao Te Ching has already pointed it out, Spinoza has done it nicely, what exactly are you adding to this?
 
Does it mean your take is mystical?

What is it that YOU are saying?. You don't seem to be saying anything new. Tao Te Ching has already pointed it out, Spinoza has done it nicely, what exactly are you adding to this?

Nothing! :D

Sorry....couldn't resist that one. No, I didn't mean my take on it was mystical. But Lao Tse is generally considered to be mystical. I suppose I'm doing my best to de-mystify it and explain it. The most I could claim is that I am trying to explain something very old in a new way. The people who I am debating with here are not so different to me, because I thought like they do for such a long time. I believe there are things about the way modern science encourages people to look at the world that can obstruct the path to understanding these things via the old explanations, not least because the whole of philosophy and religion is excluded as a valid source of information. So my point is two-fold: first, I wish to challenge the obstructions, which I believe are partly the result of identifiable mistakes. Secondly I'd like to try to re-explain it in a way which detaches it from the worst aspects of westernised religion - which I am still deeply suspicious of, especially US Christians.

It's probably a futile exercise, but I'm on my Easter holidays and I'm bored of playing Championship Manager and Civilisation III.
 
Are you really neutral?.
Don´t answer to me, answer this to yourself, Geoff.

You want to replace old traditional explanations with unintelligible stuff.
 
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Are you really neutral?.
Don´t answer to me, answer this to yourself, Geoff.

You want to replace old traditional explanations with unintelligible stuff.

Absolutely not. I want to make the old traditional explanations intelligible to people who grew up in the sort of world I did, which is very different to the world which existed when those explanations were written down. I don't actually think that the opening post of this thread is unintelligable. I did my best to make it as easy to understand as I could. I don;t know how many people have actually tried to understand it. Do you think it is unintelligable?

And, answering to myself, I honestly believe that I am as neutral as I can be at all times. I have many weaknesses. I can't give up smoking, I drink too much, I am impatient, I have a tendency to be selfish, sometimes I say and do things I regret later, I'm not very tolerant of people who are slow or have a low IQ even though some of those people are far more useful to society than I am, the list is endless....but I honestly believe I am quite good at being neutral.
 
Absolutely not. I want to make the old traditional explanations intelligible to people who grew up in the sort of world I did, which is very different to the world which existed when those explanations were written down. I don't actually think that the opening post of this thread is unintelligable. I did my best to make it as easy to understand as I could. I don;t know how many people have actually tried to understand it. Do you think it is unintelligable?

And, answering to myself, I honestly believe that I am as neutral as I can be at all times. I have many weaknesses. I can't give up smoking, I drink too much, I am impatient, I have a tendency to be selfish, sometimes I say and do things I regret later, I'm not very tolerant of people who are slow or have a low IQ even though some of those people are far more useful to society than I am, the list is endless....but I honestly believe I am quite good at being neutral.

Then you´ve failed in your attempts to explain your theories to a lay man. What is the point of building a neutral philosophy that is supposed to answer all questions if nobody but you can understand it?. :rolleyes:

And about being intolerant to people with low IQ, I am not sure if that was a reference to me, but it only shows that having a high IQ do not make you wise. ;)
 
Then you´ve failed in your attempts to explain your theories to a lay man. What is the point of building a neutral philosophy that is supposed to answer all questions if nobody but you can understand it?. :rolleyes:

And about being intolerant to people with low IQ, I am not sure if that was a reference to me, but it only shows that having a high IQ do not make you wise. ;)

It wasn't a reference to you.

And I'm sorry if you couldn't understand my explanations. It is difficult to provide a better explanation if people won't tell me what it is that they don't understand.

:)
 

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