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Fight Science! Did anyone watch this?

Well, it is still an example of being able to use the technique on an uncooporative opponent. And I never claimed that this single example was proof of anything. It is exactly what I said it was, and example of using the technique effectively against an uncooporative opponent. And it was effective. As for me knowing that I would have broken a rib, that is based on my observation of the effect the blow did have, and my knowledge of how easy it is to break the lower ribs. I have done it before accidentally, it doesn't really take much.

Uncooperative opponents in semi-contact sparring just aren't a good guide to what works and what does not work. Things work at 80% speed and power that fail at 100%.

That said, the effectiveness of the technique in practice is hardly "speculative". First of all, I would not even call it a technique. It is a mechanism for generating power, which can be used for a variety of techniques. Second, the fact that it does generate significant power is quite easy to demonstrate. The fact that this power can be generated from a dynamic position (as opposed to having to take time to carefully "line things up"), is also easy to demonstrate. Given those factors, whether or not it can be used effectively in a fight is simply a function of whether you find yourself in a situation where generating power in that way may be useful.

While this is true as far as it goes it sounds like the short power punch is competing for its niche against grappling techniques, which might just turn out to be a better option a sufficient percentage of the time to make the one inch punch a bad idea to try.

The only way to test it is to have people try it, many times, in a ring with full contact.

I disagree. Fighting with other highly skilled martial artists is what tends to "darwinise" them. You don't fight a guy in a bar swinging a bear bottle at you the same way you would fight a boxer. One of the first things a fighter learns in sparring (if his training hasn't already ingrained it into him), is how to make it very difficult for such techniques to be used against him.

There is a lot more to martial arts than just full-contact competition.

My own philosophy is that there are techniques which are relatively high percentage against competent opponents, and then there are party tricks. Techniques that are only useable on the clueless don't strike me as a good use of my training time. Your mileage may vary.

Well, my example above is such evidence. The fact that it was not full contact does not change this. Also, I am not even sure it makes sense to talk about "resisting" for this type of thing. I am not talking about a hold or throw here, nor about a joint-lock. Nor am I talking about some sophisticated nerve strike or balance disrupting technique. I am talking about punching somebody hard enough to cause damage. If I can demonstrate that the punch is hard enough to inflict damage, and that it can be successfully executed in a dynamic situation, then what more needs to be said? It is an effective way to generate power for a strike. Whether or not you can use it effectively depends on you, just as it does for any other way of generating power for a strike.

As for whether it has ever been used in full-contact competition, I have no idea. I don't watch full-contact competition. Then again, if it was used in such a competition, I doubt people watching would even recognize that it was. It looks like a push, and what's one more bruise after the fight is over?

While I respect your opinion enormously in other areas, I think in this one you really should make a point of watching some full-contact competition so you can see what it is actually like. If you have not done so then your knowledge of what works and what doesn't in terms of unarmed combat is stuck in the eighties. The world of martial arts has undergone a revolution since then, and if you take MA seriously as a hobby you have some catching up to do.

Believe me if the top competitors in MMA had an inkling that another fighter had a neat technique they could win fights with, be it short power or anything else, they would be watching that person's fights over and over again in slow motion to figure out what it was, how they did it and how to counter it.
 
Kevin,

Uncooperative opponents in semi-contact sparring just aren't a good guide to what works and what does not work. Things work at 80% speed and power that fail at 100%.
And other things do not. It all depends on what it is. Some things only work at full speed, and never work in semi-contact sparring. Again, I am just talking about a way of generating power here, not some complicated technique. If anything, something like this should work better at full speed and full power.

While this is true as far as it goes it sounds like the short power punch is competing for its niche against grappling techniques, which might just turn out to be a better option a sufficient percentage of the time to make the one inch punch a bad idea to try.
Irrelevent. Again, I am not talking about a specific technique here. I am talking about a method for generating power. Whether or not it is the best solution for a specific case, is quite beside the point. Maybe I don't want to grapple? Maybe my opponent is a much better grappler than I am, and my goal is to get free. Maybe I do want to grapple, and I am just using it to gain a better position? There is no such thing as one-size-fits-all for fighting.

The only way to test it is to have people try it, many times, in a ring with full contact.
No, that is the only way to test its efficacy in a ring against skilled martial artists who have trained extensively for fighting in a ring.

There is a lot more to fighting than full-contact competitions in a ring.

My own philosophy is that there are techniques which are relatively high percentage against competent opponents, and then there are party tricks. Techniques that are only useable on the clueless don't strike me as a good use of my training time. Your mileage may vary.
If the goal of your training is to become really good at competitions with other martial artists, then that is certainly the way to go. Not everybody has that as their goal. I certainly don't.

As for whether it has ever been used in full-contact competition, I have no idea. I don't watch full-contact competition. Then again, if it was used in such a competition, I doubt people watching would even recognize that it was. It looks like a push, and what's one more bruise after the fight is over?
While I respect your opinion enormously in other areas, I think in this one you really should make a point of watching some full-contact competition so you can see what it is actually like.
I have watched some full contact competitions. It doesn't really interest me. Like all martial sports, the rules and conditions of the match greatly restrict what is and is not useful and/or effective.

If you have not done so then your knowledge of what works and what doesn't in terms of unarmed combat is stuck in the eighties. The world of martial arts has undergone a revolution since then, and if you take MA seriously as a hobby you have some catching up to do.
If I took the kind of martial arts you are talking about as my hobby, yes. But I don't. Full contact competition style martial arts is not my hobby. It is not even something I am interested in. My interests lie in weapon combat and self-defense.

Believe me if the top competitors in MMA had an inkling that another fighter had a neat technique they could win fights with, be it short power or anything else, they would be watching that person's fights over and over again in slow motion to figure out what it was, how they did it and how to counter it.
Again, there is more to fighting than competitions in a ring. Just because something isn't particularly useful there, doesn't mean it isn't useful.

I am not going to make any claims about what is or is not effective for an unarmed person fighting another unarmed martial artist in a ring, while constrained by a set of rules I am not even really familiar with. I will make claims about what I think I can make work against an uncooporative opponent. Those are two very different things.


Dr. Stupid
 
To some extent you are missing the element of skill in grappling because you don't have the eye for it yet. If you don't know what you are looking for then skilled grappling is often hard to distinguish from a couple of musclebound people hugging.

This is especially so when both participants are good grapplers.

I AM skilled at grappling, but I think your second point is probably right, they could be close in skill and thats why it appears so much a strength contest

They work well against the totally untrained haymaker, but that is about it. Against jabs and crosses the traditional karate blocks will just get you hurt, which is why you never see them used in full-contact karate competitions.

This in my personal experience is not true. Personally, over time I have reduced the amount of "overshoot" in many of these blocks which can seem SO exaggerated in karate class. The only time these blocks failed me is when the modern style "spazz out" fight club style boxers come at me, in which case I simply just get out of the way while they tire themselves out

In my estimation, I am FAR too "stiff" (as so many TMA styles are) to deal with these spazz out flailing wildly at random punches in close. I really do simply back out of the way. Any decently skilled fighter would floor one of these guys. I am not a decently skilled fighter, but I am a very skilled defender if theres such a thing, and quite a decent upright grappler.
 
Every time I hear someone argue that leg muscles are stronger than arms so kicks are stronger than punches, I ask them how they push their car if it's stuck in snow. Do they stand on one leg and push with the other? If I want to take down a door I don't kick it, I shoulder it. That way I can use my leg muscles and others better.

Maybe its from riding professional BMX freestlye, but my legs are pretty strong.

I can kick a crank socket loose without an impact wrench (had to do it even on a car with 4.11's)

Try that with your arms :)
 
As always, link a video or cite a fight where someone has used a one inch punch in this fashion or I will remain skeptical.

I can't remember the name, but one of the old film bios of Bruce Lee has a demo of the 1-inch punch. I believe there's a clip of it on the Dragon: the Bruce Lee Story special edition DVD.
 
Every time I hear someone argue that leg muscles are stronger than arms so kicks are stronger than punches, I ask them how they push their car if it's stuck in snow. Do they stand on one leg and push with the other? If I want to take down a door I don't kick it, I shoulder it. That way I can use my leg muscles and others better.

Except that you've just contradicted yourself. In your example, just as when pushing a car, the vast majority of the power is coming from the leg muscles. The rest of the body, including arms, simply focus the power into a particular vector. It is still the leg muscles providing the power that moves the car. Leg muscles are indeed typically stronger than arm muscles. Try moving a car using just your arms.
 
And other things do not. It all depends on what it is. Some things only work at full speed, and never work in semi-contact sparring. Again, I am just talking about a way of generating power here, not some complicated technique. If anything, something like this should work better at full speed and full power.

I think it's unlikely, because the range at which a one-inch punch might be useful barely exists in full-contact competition, but it's always possible. I strongly suspect that the one inch punch has the same problem as the fancy trapping techniques of wing chun and praying mantis kung fu, which is that opponents pass through their useful range in a fraction of a second on their way to a takedown so there's almost no chance to use them.

Irrelevent. Again, I am not talking about a specific technique here. I am talking about a method for generating power. Whether or not it is the best solution for a specific case, is quite beside the point. Maybe I don't want to grapple? Maybe my opponent is a much better grappler than I am, and my goal is to get free. Maybe I do want to grapple, and I am just using it to gain a better position? There is no such thing as one-size-fits-all for fighting.

Maybe, maybe, maybe. Show it working in a ring or it's a party trick. If you think it will get you away from a much better grappler then try it. If you think it will get you a better position in a grapple then try it.

No, that is the only way to test its efficacy in a ring against skilled martial artists who have trained extensively for fighting in a ring.

There is a lot more to fighting than full-contact competitions in a ring.

Have you seen the "Why do people still study traditional martial arts?" thread? We've gone over this issue in detail.

So far as the documented evidence goes, when people go at it outside a ring then the same people (full-contact athletes) win using pretty much the same techniques (full-contact sporting techniques) as they use to win in the ring. So far as the documented evidence goes, when people who are not full-contact athletes try to use their stuff outside the ring it fails to work and they are reduced to improvising terrible kickboxing and worse wrestling. They look like utter rubbish.

The idea that non-contact training might allow you to manifest useful skills against someone genuinely trying to hit you turned out to be almost completely false. It's a great pity, really, because it would be so nice if you could get good at fighting some easy way.

In the early UFCs when non-contact types went up against sport fighters they got creamed of course, but when two non-contact types got into the ring together it was just awful. Neither of them could ever make their supposed skills work, even against each other. Or look at the infamous Boztepe versus Cheung fight. Each was a grand master of wing chun kung fu, but you see better technique when a couple of seagulls fight over a chip than we saw in that fight.

If the goal of your training is to become really good at competitions with other martial artists, then that is certainly the way to go. Not everybody has that as their goal. I certainly don't.

As I said, your thinking is based on the evidence we had in the eighties. It's 2006. We now know that if the goal of your training is to be able to apply your skills at all, you need to train like a full-contact athlete.

I'm sorry you wasted all that time, but believe me I wasted an awful lot of it myself.

I have watched some full contact competitions. It doesn't really interest me. Like all martial sports, the rules and conditions of the match greatly restrict what is and is not useful and/or effective.

As I said, the fact is that the rules don't appear to make a great deal of difference in practise. Some difference certainly, but not a fundamental difference.

If I took the kind of martial arts you are talking about as my hobby, yes. But I don't. Full contact competition style martial arts is not my hobby. It is not even something I am interested in. My interests lie in weapon combat and self-defense.

If you're interested in self-defence in 2006 you have to train with full contact.

Again, there is more to fighting than competitions in a ring. Just because something isn't particularly useful there, doesn't mean it isn't useful.

I am not going to make any claims about what is or is not effective for an unarmed person fighting another unarmed martial artist in a ring, while constrained by a set of rules I am not even really familiar with. I will make claims about what I think I can make work against an uncooporative opponent. Those are two very different things.

As a matter of fact, the evidence says they are not. The evidence says that a mouse could starve on the difference between what works against an uncooperative opponent in a ring and what works against an uncooperative opponent anywhere else.

This isn't a martial arts issue, it's a skeptical issue. Either non-contact training produces functional skills or it does not, and we need to look to the evidence either way. So far the evidence has come down firmly on the side of "not".
 
I would've liked to see them show how much power the thai round kick had in comparison to the round kick of other martial arts.
 
I noticed that Dan Inosanto seemed to be the only martial artist that spoke intelligently about anything. The rest of them seemed to just be morons trying to hype up whatever it is that they do.
 
KL, is there a youtube or google video of a UFC or whatever match between at least one opponent who had punching or kicking skills enough to not just make it a wrestling match or strength contest?

Ive seen some bloopers, where some sort has happened, but never where two actual sluggers attempt to remain standing.

It seems that either these guys are all EXTREMELY good at taking punches with little ill effects (which I do find easy enough to believe), or that they cant punch/kick worth crap (which I also could be convinced of)

I like the UFC stuff because it seems so much more real or relavant to real life than the joke of kickboxing, or worse the IKF flag tourneys, but not every fight needs to/will end up on the floor. Many are averted or ended long before that in a true self defense situation
 
KL, is there a youtube or google video of a UFC or whatever match between at least one opponent who had punching or kicking skills enough to not just make it a wrestling match or strength contest?

Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic is the man you want to see then.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=crocop&search=Search

There is also a video/DVD called "Best of Pride Knockouts" or something similar which, as you would expect, is nothing but edited highlights of people getting hit. Crocop gets a fair bit of air time in that one.

Generally the best fighters gravitate to the big purses in Pride. The UFC as a venue tends to have less skillful fighters, so you see both the very best grappling and the very best striking in Pride.
 
Kevin Lowe,

Have you seen the "Why do people still study traditional martial arts?" thread? We've gone over this issue in detail.

So far as the documented evidence goes, when people go at it outside a ring then the same people (full-contact athletes) win using pretty much the same techniques (full-contact sporting techniques) as they use to win in the ring. So far as the documented evidence goes, when people who are not full-contact athletes try to use their stuff outside the ring it fails to work and they are reduced to improvising terrible kickboxing and worse wrestling. They look like utter rubbish.
I am not familiar with that thread, so I don't really know what you are talking about. Are you talking about martial artists competing outside of a ring? Or are you talking about real fights? How do those full-contact ring fighters do against multiple opponants? Or in an area with lots of obsticles and variations in the ground? Or against an armed opponent?

Two points. First, there is more to full contact training than just competing in a ring. If that's all you do, then you are going to get a very biased view of what is and is not useful. Second, I don't care if looks like rubbish. I care if it keeps me alive or not.

The idea that non-contact training might allow you to manifest useful skills against someone genuinely trying to hit you turned out to be almost completely false. It's a great pity, really, because it would be so nice if you could get good at fighting some easy way.
Who said anything about non-contact training? Full contact training is a necessary thing for anybody who actually intends to fight. I would never suggest otherwise. Likewise lighter contact training is important for preparing for full contact training, and for developing skills which cannot be effectively trained in full contact.

But again, there is much more to fighting that competitions between unarmed martial artists in a ring.

If the goal of your training is to become really good at competitions with other martial artists, then that is certainly the way to go. Not everybody has that as their goal. I certainly don't.
As I said, your thinking is based on the evidence we had in the eighties. It's 2006. We now know that if the goal of your training is to be able to apply your skills at all, you need to train like a full-contact athlete.

I'm sorry you wasted all that time, but believe me I wasted an awful lot of it myself.
Again, you seem to be misinterpreting me. I have done full contact training (with weapons). And the style I currently do involves full contact training and sparring at its more advanced levels. What I don't do is train for the extremely artificial conditions of a competition ring. If I get into a real fight, it is not going to be in a ring against a single, unarmed, highly skilled athlete. So that is not what I train for.

As I said, the fact is that the rules don't appear to make a great deal of difference in practise. Some difference certainly, but not a fundamental difference.
So your saying that if I pull out a switch-blade and stick it in my opponants ribs, that isn't going to make any difference? Or that the way a person trains for the fight isn't going to be any different if they know that it is a possibility?

If you're interested in self-defence in 2006 you have to train with full contact.
Again, I do. Just not the kind of stuff you are talking about. This has nothing to do with 2006. Only a fool would assume that they are a competent fighter if they have never actually fought.


Dr. Stupid
 
"The idea that non-contact training might allow you to manifest useful skills against someone genuinely trying to hit you turned out to be almost completely false."

I'd go even further than the Cat's rebuttal

Even with NO contact training, blocks learned in old school martial arts can and do save your bacon. Before I got far enough to do anything more than light sparring, the blocks I learned were saving me teeth and skin on an almost daily basis.

It really got to the point where I could almost not be hit in a fight. (I realize that most of my opponents were just opportunistic thugs and not skilled warriors, but hey, THAT is usually who is attacking you in the real world)

In parallel were the extreme "handrail to face contact" avoidance training my bike and skateboard were teaching me to be fair, but those blocks certainly worked.
 
I am not familiar with that thread, so I don't really know what you are talking about. Are you talking about martial artists competing outside of a ring? Or are you talking about real fights? How do those full-contact ring fighters do against multiple opponants? Or in an area with lots of obsticles and variations in the ground? Or against an armed opponent?

We refer to this as the "broken glass, lava and multiple ninjas" argument. After all, just because someone can't beat a single person unarmed, what's to say they can't beat three people at once with switchblades in a minefield?

Two points. First, there is more to full contact training than just competing in a ring. If that's all you do, then you are going to get a very biased view of what is and is not useful. Second, I don't care if looks like rubbish. I care if it keeps me alive or not.

I'll rephrase that. It is immediately obvious to the untrained eye that unarmed combat skills trained without full contact are rubbish, when you see their practitioners in action.

Who said anything about non-contact training? Full contact training is a necessary thing for anybody who actually intends to fight. I would never suggest otherwise. Likewise lighter contact training is important for preparing for full contact training, and for developing skills which cannot be effectively trained in full contact.

But again, there is much more to fighting that competitions between unarmed martial artists in a ring.

All the available evidence, sad to say, is that the same people win in the ring who win under any set of rules. If you have evidence otherwise I would be very interested in seeing it.

Again, you seem to be misinterpreting me. I have done full contact training (with weapons). And the style I currently do involves full contact training and sparring at its more advanced levels. What I don't do is train for the extremely artificial conditions of a competition ring. If I get into a real fight, it is not going to be in a ring against a single, unarmed, highly skilled athlete. So that is not what I train for.

If you can't even beat one unarmed person with a bit of a clue, what makes you think you have the remotest chance against multiple armed opponents?

So your saying that if I pull out a switch-blade and stick it in my opponants ribs, that isn't going to make any difference? Or that the way a person trains for the fight isn't going to be any different if they know that it is a possibility?

I'm saying that the evidence that the people who claim to train for this stuff without full contact have any useable fighting skills at all is very, very sketchy and almost totally anecdotal. Whereas the evidence that they suck is well documented.

People like Geoff Thompson use the training methods and techniques of MMA and modify them for the kind of scraps you are talking about, and it's at least plausible that their students develop useable skills. Not certain, but plausible.
 
Kevin,

We refer to this as the "broken glass, lava and multiple ninjas" argument. After all, just because someone can't beat a single person unarmed, what's to say they can't beat three people at once with switchblades in a minefield?
What are you talking about? Who said anything about not being able to beat a single unarmed person? Why the digression into absurdity? My point is simply that the best way for dealing with one type of situation is not necessarily always the best solution.

I'll rephrase that. It is immediately obvious to the untrained eye that unarmed combat skills trained without full contact are rubbish, when you see their practitioners in action.
I don't doubt it. But as far as I can see, nobody here has ever suggested otherwise.

All the available evidence, sad to say, is that the same people win in the ring who win under any set of rules. If you have evidence otherwise I would be very interested in seeing it.
What evidence are you talking about? How would you even perform such an experiment? What, do you take different types of martial artists and see how they perform in bar fights or something?

If you can't even beat one unarmed person with a bit of a clue, what makes you think you have the remotest chance against multiple armed opponents?
Where did you get the idea that I can't beat one unarmed person with "a bit of a clue"?

So your saying that if I pull out a switch-blade and stick it in my opponants ribs, that isn't going to make any difference? Or that the way a person trains for the fight isn't going to be any different if they know that it is a possibility?
I'm saying that the evidence that the people who claim to train for this stuff without full contact have any useable fighting skills at all is very, very sketchy and almost totally anecdotal. Whereas the evidence that they suck is well documented.

People like Geoff Thompson use the training methods and techniques of MMA and modify them for the kind of scraps you are talking about, and it's at least plausible that their students develop useable skills. Not certain, but plausible.
Again, you aren't even arguing against anything I've said here. The system I train in does use full-contact sparring as part of its training. My point is that what is most effective in a ring against a highly skilled unarmed opponant, does not include everything which is effective and useful in real fights. Full contact MMA competitions are not the be-all-end-all of martial arts.


Dr. Stupid
 
How would you even perform such an experiment? What, do you take different types of martial artists and see how they perform in bar fights or something?

Or in a no rules bout. Like the ones in Brazil, long before UFC.
 
Thaiboxerken,

How do those full-contact ring fighters do against multiple opponants? Or in an area with lots of obsticles and variations in the ground? Or against an armed opponent?
How do dojo-potatoes fare in these situations?
They get their asses kicked, of course. But the person who actually trains for those types of circumstances is going to be better off that the ring fighter. The point is that there are things which are useful for those types of fights which are not going to be very useful for competition in a ring. A serious competitor would be a fool to waste his training time on things which are not going to help him in the ring, but somebody who is training for a different kind of fighting is going to have other priorities, and is going to train differently.

For example, a MMA competitor is not going to waste any training time learning how to defend against weapon attacks, or how to use improvised weapons himself, because it isn't going to help him in the ring. Similarly, somebody who wants to know how to defend themselves in a real fight on the street is not going to spend a bunch of time learning things like ground fighting or reversals, because they aren't going to help him in the kind of fight he is training for.


Dr. Stupid
 

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