Facism: Martial Law starting Oct. 1rst, 2008.

[SDC]

It was economically very advantageous to do so and helped launch its short-lived empire out of the ashes of the British one. Since then the US has helped to create many dictatorships and no functioning democracies.

Cut by me so I may address a point of vast ignorance per Jane. Her post concerned post-WW2. She claimed that the US helped to create "No functioning democracies."

The BRD (Federal Republic of Germany), and Japan, and ex-Fascist Italy... Hello? History, anyone?

 

[Travis]

No, democracy and military occupation by a foreign power are not compatible. If the will of the Iraqi people were important to the US, the US would leave immediately.

Yes, leaving them to be slaughtered by Jihadists is so humane.

It was economically very advantageous to do so and helped launch its short-lived empire out of the ashes of the British one. Since then the US has helped to create many dictatorships and no functioning democracies.

I see, so economically prosperous democracies that the US helped create don't count.

No. Narco-state Afghanistan is also under military occupation by a foreign power. Its oil industry US puppet leader has virtually no control of the country outside of Kabul.

You are continuing to dismiss valid examples with arbitrary criteria. Both West Germany and Japan were transitioned into functioning democracies while occupied by US troops. The presence of the troops is how security for the new democracy is assured.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

No, democracy and military occupation by a foreign power are not compatible. If the will of the Iraqi people were important to the US, the US would leave immediately.

iraq is not an occupied country, our forces remain there at the request (and discretion) of the iraqi government

 

[Disenchanted]

I see what you mean but it seems strange to create a democracy with bombing and ethnic cleansing. Seems like the easy way out!

Continuing to move the goal posts seems like the easy way out for you.

Bombing is a part of war and sometimes it needs to be done to stop things like Milosevic's ethnic cleansing.

How did the U.S. bring about democracy in Kosovo with ethnic cleansing?

 

[Jontg]

iraq is not an occupied country, our forces remain there at the request (and discretion) of the iraqi government

Which is nothing but a puppet of the occupying forces. That was the point of this entire war. I think you know as well as I do that we'd gladly crush this new "Democracy" and replace it with somebody even worse than Saddam if we thought it would make getting to their oil easier. And then when he began to act against our interests, we'd conveniently remember that he was a genocidal maniac and obliterate him.

 

[Travis]

Which is nothing but a puppet of the occupying forces. That was the point of this entire war. I think you know as well as I do that we'd gladly crush this new "Democracy" and replace it with somebody even worse than Saddam if we thought it would make getting to their oil easier. And then when he began to act against our interests, we'd conveniently remember that he was a genocidal maniac and obliterate him.

I'm sorry but the war had nothing to do with oil. It would have been much cheaper to just leave Saddam in power and pay the below market rates that Saddam sold his oil for.

 

[JihadJane]

I'm sorry but the war had nothing to do with oil. It would have been much cheaper to just leave Saddam in power and pay the below market rates that Saddam sold his oil for.

 

[JihadJane]

Cut by me so I may address a point of vast ignorance per Jane. Her post concerned post-WW2. She claimed that the US helped to create "No functioning democracies."

The BRD (Federal Republic of Germany), and Japan, and ex-Fascist Italy... Hello? History, anyone?

Wot I wrote:


"It was economically very advantageous to do so and helped launch its short-lived empire out of the ashes of the British one. Since then the US has helped to create many dictatorships and no functioning democracies."

 

[ArmillarySphere]

So, how's that fascism working out for you? I hear there are some European manufacturers stocking up on leather boots and uniform fabrics; when will you start ordering?

 

[JihadJane]

Yes, leaving them to be slaughtered by Jihadists is so humane.

Good ole USA - always busy saving lives! Not!

You are continuing to dismiss valid examples with arbitrary criteria. Both West Germany and Japan were transitioned into functioning democracies while occupied by US troops.

Yes.

The presence of the troops is how security for the new democracy is assured.

The Terrible American Dream.

 

[JihadJane]

.... and ex-Fascist Italy... Hello? History, anyone?

Read about Operation Gladio to find out about NATO's efforts to promote democracy in Italy...

 

[JihadJane]

Continuing to move the goal posts seems like the easy way out for you.

Bombing is a part of war and sometimes it needs to be done to stop things like Milosevic's ethnic cleansing.

How did the U.S. bring about democracy in Kosovo with ethnic cleansing?

Ethnic cleansing was triggered by Nato bombing. Hey presto..get rid of Serb opposition to Kosovo independence.

 

[Corsair 115]

I think you know as well as I do that we'd gladly crush this new "Democracy" and replace it with somebody even worse than Saddam if we thought it would make getting to their oil easier.

Reposting a post I made in a thread in the Social Issues & Current Events forum:

Perhaps then you can explain why the amount of crude oil imported by the United States from Iraq was 39% lower in 2007 than it was in 2001 (176,709,000 barrels imported in 2007 compared to 289,998,000 barrels in 2001).

Perhaps you can also explain why then, for the last four years, Canada has been the number one supplier of crude oil to the United States. In 2007, imports from Canada comprised 18.82% of all U.S. crude oil imports. If you add Mexico to the list, the U.S. gets nearly one-third of all its crude oil imports from its two neighbouring nations.

Another interesting item: in 2001, the amount of U.S. crude oil imports coming from the Persian Gulf (defined as consisting of the nations of Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab Emirates) was 972.5 million barrels. In 2007, the amount had declined by 20.6% to 771.9 million barrels. This in spite of overall U.S. demand having increased by 7.5% during that time, from 3,404.9 million barrels to 3,661.4 million barrels.

Sources for all figures: Energy Information Administration.

 

[Disenchanted]

Ethnic cleansing was triggered by Nato bombing. Hey presto..get rid of Serb opposition to Kosovo independence.

What is your source for this?

Are you saying there was no ethnic cleansing in Kosovo prior to NATO bombing? If so then you are wrong.

War crimes and crimes against humanity by the Yugoslav forces in Kosovo have been a focus of international attention since the NATO bombing began on March 24, 1999. However, civilians have been the targets of war crimes and other violations of humanitarian law since the Kosovo conflict began in early 1998.

Timeline

Why would the U.S. and NATO allies want to cause ethnic cleansing? What evidence do you have that they did? Why would they want to stop the Serbian opposition and what evidence do you have for it?

 

[Plantfoam]

Why would the U.S. and NATO allies want to cause ethnic cleansing? What evidence do you have that they did? Why would they want to stop the Serbian opposition and what evidence do you have for it?

I'm not sure why they would want to cause ethnic cleansing, but I'm certain that oil and the world bank have something to do with it.

 

[SDC]

Wot I wrote:


"It was economically very advantageous to do so and helped launch its short-lived empire out of the ashes of the British one. Since then the US has helped to create many dictatorships and no functioning democracies."

Right, you did. Since the end of the Second World War is the era you are describing. I repeat: BRD, Japan, ex-Fascist Italy.

I could add that the US has "helped to create" many "functioning democracies" in the former Soviet bloc: Poland, Czech republic, and many of the other states.

I expect this is not what you meant to acknowledge. But you are wrong.

ETA: do you understand the meaning of "since then"? It means after a point, including that same point. So since World War II, for example, means beginning in 1945. (I believe.) Since the end of the British empire means effectively beginning in the immediate post-war era, and thus 1945 again. (The effective end of the British empire came with the end of Indian rule, which collapsed in 1945-7. Jewel in the crown, y'know.)

That's history.

 

[SDC]

Read about Operation Gladio to find out about NATO's efforts to promote democracy in Italy...

Hello? Italy is a functioning democracy, with the US a major contributor after Fascist Italy's collapse in 1943.

Does everyone 'round here share the same universe? Are you trying to construct a "parallel world" as per science fiction? Harry Turtledove gets my vote. How about you?

 

[SDC]

I'm not sure why they would want to cause ethnic cleansing, but I'm certain that oil and the world bank have something to do with it.

Shush! We aren't supposed to let on about the World Bank's takeover of the vast Bosnian oil fields, purported to be the richest in the world. Not a word!

 

[Travis]

Good ole USA - always busy saving lives! Not!

Your evidence that, on the whole, the USA kills more people than it helps?

The Terrible American Dream.

Yes, secure democracies suck. That's why they always crumble and.....oh wait, they usually don't. But surely no one immigrates to such terrible places......oh, they usually do.

 

[HereticHulk]

(not the same one)

Irrelevant.

Well actually active Army Units have been deployed within the United States at different times throughout history the most recent was during Katrina.

Actually, this is a 'domestic' tour of duty. We are not talking about the National Guard or a Army Unit. This is a Army Brigade.

How do you know that they all have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

I didn't say 'all', you did. It only takes one.

And at such small numbers that is hardly martial law.

Didn't say it was.

Do we still have an election? Yes.

It is not November 4th yet.

Do we still have local and state governments in control of their affairs? Yes. Are you here on this thread talking critical of the government? Yes.

I would imagine it would be a slow process.

Well I geuss that debunks any martial law claims. Unless we are talking about that other kind of martial law which looks exactly like civilian government.

You have debunked nothing and I never claimed that we are currently under Martial Law.

Well at least you stand by your failures.

And you talk out your backside.