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Facebook bans far right groups

That's one way of looking at it.

The scary thing is, the other option is that you are feeling silly for having a practical joke work on you and now have to double down and just find some reason it was really racist.

The whole point is that trolling or racism is a false dichotomy. Through the white supremacists trying to troll and trigger the libs it became a white supremacist symbol.
 
Not really, when avowed racists use it and intend it to be taken as a racist symbol. Unless you're arguing that the Christchurch shooter was pretending to be a racist when he made that symbol.

The whole concept of pretending to be racist is just really weird. Why do I have to determine if someone is a real racist or just pretending?

For example it is fairly clear that Governor Wallace was not a real racist when he was saying "segregation now. segregation forever" as that was just a political view he had to be popular after losing on a civil rights platform earlier. Does this mean that he is not a clear example of southern racism because he did not really hold those beliefs and that anyone making such statements racism is suspect as well?
 
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The whole concept of pretending to be racist is just really weird. Why do I have to determine if someone is a real racist or just pretending?


For example it is fairly clear that Governor Wallace was not a real racist when he was saying "segregation now. segregation forever" as that was just a political view he had to be popular after losing on a civil rights platform earlier. Does this mean that he is not a clear example of southern racism because he did not really hold those beliefs and that anyone making such statements racism is suspect as well?

As I've noted in a related thread...

Pandering to racists is still racist. Supporting racists "despite their racism" because they have "other views I can agree with" is still racist. Maybe not the same degree of racist, but still racist. It doesn't matter if someone is "pretending" to be racist for whatever agenda, as long as their actions still actively or tacitly support racism. (Obviously doing so for the purposes of satire is a different matter, but I'm bringing it up because if I don't, someone else will try to use it as a "gotcha".)

Because what you've said to the targets of their racism is "I will happily give these people the power to deny your humanity and further marginalize and disenfranchise you, as long as I get a elected/a tax break/abortion ban/better job/more power/whatever other selfish desire I have".

This is what is meant by cultural racism. Thoughtlessly sacrificing the humanity of others for your own short-term gain.
 
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Pandering to vegetarians is vegetarian!

Yep that is why everyone so wrongly holds George Wallace as a symbol of racism when he was not at all racist, he was just pandering to them. As such it is wrong to classify him as a racist in the history books for his "segregation now, segregation forever" speeches.

And having a black daughter proves Strom Thurmond was never racist even running as a Dixiecrat that so many people think was a racist party for its pro-segregation ideology about keeping blacks out of the white pools.
 
As I've noted in a related thread...

Pandering to racists is still racist. Supporting racists "despite their racism" because they have "other views I can agree with" is still racist. Maybe not the same degree of racist, but still racist. It doesn't matter if someone is "pretending" to be racist for whatever agenda, as long as their actions still actively or tacitly support racism. (Obviously doing so for the purposes of satire is a different matter, but I'm bringing it up because if I don't, someone else will try to use it as a "gotcha".)

Because what you've said to the targets of their racism is "I will happily give these people the power to deny your humanity and further marginalize and disenfranchise you, as long as I get a elected/a tax break/abortion ban/better job/more power/whatever other selfish desire I have".

This is what is meant by cultural racism. Thoughtlessly sacrificing the humanity of others for your own short-term gain.
So wanting a better job and lower taxes is racist?
 
So wanting a better job and lower taxes is racist?

I rarely agree with you, and I think your question here is a bit unfair, but it's sad that luchog can't see more nuance in people's decisions. People voted for Trump for a variety of reasons. I disagree with such a decision, in part because Trump is a crook and unlikely to ever do anything good for the average American, but I'm not going to presume that every Trump voter is evil because they voted for someone I consider to be, himself, evil. It's just unwarranted.
 
I rarely agree with you, and I think your question here is a bit unfair, but it's sad that luchog can't see more nuance in people's decisions. People voted for Trump for a variety of reasons. I disagree with such a decision, in part because Trump is a crook and unlikely to ever do anything good for the average American, but I'm not going to presume that every Trump voter is evil because they voted for someone I consider to be, himself, evil. It's just unwarranted.

Racism is an acceptable trade-off for tax cuts. There's your nuance.
 
As I've noted in a related thread...

Pandering to racists is still racist. Supporting racists "despite their racism" because they have "other views I can agree with" is still racist. Maybe not the same degree of racist, but still racist. It doesn't matter if someone is "pretending" to be racist for whatever agenda, as long as their actions still actively or tacitly support racism. (Obviously doing so for the purposes of satire is a different matter, but I'm bringing it up because if I don't, someone else will try to use it as a "gotcha".)

Because what you've said to the targets of their racism is "I will happily give these people the power to deny your humanity and further marginalize and disenfranchise you, as long as I get a elected/a tax break/abortion ban/better job/more power/whatever other selfish desire I have".

This is what is meant by cultural racism. Thoughtlessly sacrificing the humanity of others for your own short-term gain.
Some people are so short sighted because they don't have the luxury of putting progressive ideals ahead of paying bills, putting food on the table, and a roof over their head. There are instances where most people can agree on progressive policies like dealing with climate change, yet working class people get hit the hardest when implementing things like a carbon tax. Or all this mass migration and placing all these people into working class cities where they bear the brunt off increased crime, over spent social services, increased housing costs, etc from people who haven't paid into the system. Question any of it and they are labeled racist. They are going to vote for whoever can help them get by and not make their situation worse.
 
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Some people are so short sighted because they don't have the luxury of putting progressive ideals ahead of paying bills, putting food on the table, and a roof over their head. There are instances where most people can agree on progressive policies like dealing with climate change, yet working class people get hit the hardest when implementing things like a carbon tax. Or all this mass migration and placing all these people into working class cities where they bear the brunt off increased crime, over spent social services, increased housing costs, etc from people who haven't paid into the system. Question any of it and they are labeled racist. They are going to vote for whoever can help them get by and not make their situation worse.

But of course cutting taxes on their owners is the number one priority for them and that is worth racism, so that social inequality gets greater and they are struggling even more!

Then there is the outright refusal of responsibility and the welfare programs like we see for farmers "hurt" by the tariff. Take some personal responsibility for the welfare of your business and livelihood people!
 
Some people are so short sighted because they don't have the luxury of putting progressive ideals ahead of paying bills, putting food on the table, and a roof over their head. There are instances where most people can agree on progressive policies like dealing with climate change, yet working class people get hit the hardest when implementing things like a carbon tax. Or all this mass migration and placing all these people into working class cities where they bear the brunt off increased crime, over spent social services, increased housing costs, etc from people who haven't paid into the system. Question any of it and they are labeled racist. They are going to vote for whoever can help them get by and not make their situation worse.

In your scenario, those people are definitely stupid, but probably also racist. No one is "placing" any migrants into "working class cities", and immigrants commit less crimes than natural citizens and illegal immigrants can't even use the social services they pay in to. But the Trumps of the world use racism to stir the fears of stupid people into voting for Trump, and then Trump makes those voters' situation worse.
 
Some people are so short sighted because they don't have the luxury of putting progressive ideals ahead of paying bills, putting food on the table, and a roof over their head. There are instances where most people can agree on progressive policies like dealing with climate change, yet working class people get hit the hardest when implementing things like a carbon tax. Or all this mass migration and placing all these people into working class cities where they bear the brunt off increased crime, over spent social services, increased housing costs, etc from people who haven't paid into the system. Question any of it and they are labeled racist. They are going to vote for whoever can help them get by and not make their situation worse.

"The lower class people had to side with the racist so he could cut social programs and give tax breaks to the mega-rich" is an argument I wasn't expecting in this thread.
 
How is saying "I don't care if a race other than mine gets oppressed and disenfranchised, as long as I get tax cuts," not racist?

And right there is the problem. The above is what YOU SAY, not what Trump voters say. You are putting words into their mouths based on your narrow and intolerant interpretation JUST SO you can call them racists and thus completely ignore or dismiss any other point, justified or not, that they might have.

I think Trump's a racist, or at least is deliberately trying to appeal to racists. It does not follow that Trump voters think he's a racist, or believe that any racist tendencies of his will have any real impact. You can disagree with them on that. I sure do. But that doesn't make them racists. Not everything that has potential negative impacts on minorities is racist.
 
It does not follow that Trump voters think he's a racist, or believe that any racist tendencies of his will have any real impact. You can disagree with them on that. I sure do. But that doesn't make them racists. Not everything that has potential negative impacts on minorities is racist.


Yes, I listened to all the voter interviews on the news as well. It's absolutely amazing the sort of cognitive dissonance all those "not racists" engaged in to justify and rationalize voting for such a blatant racist who loudly and stridently announced his racist attitudes and intentions, over and over again throughout the campaign. No one who wasn't living under a rock could have failed to notice the upsurge in avowed white supremacists who supported that racist, who in his turn failed to disavow them (except in the most mealy-mouthed way when forcefully pressed on the issue). Self-delusion writ large.

American culture was built on racism, specifically white supremacism, "Manifest Destiny". It was the fundamental cause and foundation of the bloodiest and most destructive war ever fought on American soil, and quite possibly the most brutal civil war in history. It pervades so much of our assumptions about society, colours so much of our social and political interactions, creates divides and hurdles that are still extremely difficult for minorities to overcome. Our culture, especially in the south, is inundated with the symbols and practices of white supremacism; and many, many people are adamantly unwilling to reject and abandon those symbols and practices.

To refuse to acknowledge that undercurrent, to refuse to question the expression of of that racism, is to participate in it and perpetuate it.

Not all racism is cross-burning, church-shooting, ranting on street-corner obvious. Very little, in fact. The majority of racism is subtle, casual, "some of my best friends are" dismissive. As anyone who is black in this nation, who is Hispanic, even Asian, how they experience racism from day to day.

There was a great show on NPR about this a few days ago. The problem here is that people have a need to see themselves as the "good guys", to believe in their own virtue and piety. There is a natural unwillingness to recognize and acknowledge the bad things they do, because it harms their self-image to do so. Even the worst of people believe that they're the good guys, or at least that they're not any worse than anyone else -- egalitarian awfulness.

So they refuse to examine their own motivations, their own actions, and how those actions affect others. They have effectively said "I'm all that matters." It's not that they don't believe that Trump is racist, it's that they don't care. It doesn't affect them, therefore it doesn't matter; and the cognitive dissonance this generates causes them to invent evasions and justifications for avoiding acknowledging the source and impact of that attitude. That's cultural racism, the refusal to examine the reasons we act the way we do, while continuing to support a culture and society permeated by institutional racism, and not caring about the impact it has on the targets of that racism. "As long as I get mine, I don't care enough about other people to change the way that I think or act."
 
Yes, I listened to all the voter interviews on the news as well. It's absolutely amazing the sort of cognitive dissonance all those "not racists" engaged in to justify and rationalize voting for such a blatant racist who loudly and stridently announced his racist attitudes and intentions, over and over again throughout the campaign. No one who wasn't living under a rock could have failed to notice the upsurge in avowed white supremacists who supported that racist, who in his turn failed to disavow them (except in the most mealy-mouthed way when forcefully pressed on the issue). Self-delusion writ large.

American culture was built on racism, specifically white supremacism, "Manifest Destiny". It was the fundamental cause and foundation of the bloodiest and most destructive war ever fought on American soil, and quite possibly the most brutal civil war in history. It pervades so much of our assumptions about society, colours so much of our social and political interactions, creates divides and hurdles that are still extremely difficult for minorities to overcome. Our culture, especially in the south, is inundated with the symbols and practices of white supremacism; and many, many people are adamantly unwilling to reject and abandon those symbols and practices.

To refuse to acknowledge that undercurrent, to refuse to question the expression of of that racism, is to participate in it and perpetuate it.

Not all racism is cross-burning, church-shooting, ranting on street-corner obvious. Very little, in fact. The majority of racism is subtle, casual, "some of my best friends are" dismissive. As anyone who is black in this nation, who is Hispanic, even Asian, how they experience racism from day to day.

There was a great show on NPR about this a few days ago. The problem here is that people have a need to see themselves as the "good guys", to believe in their own virtue and piety. There is a natural unwillingness to recognize and acknowledge the bad things they do, because it harms their self-image to do so. Even the worst of people believe that they're the good guys, or at least that they're not any worse than anyone else -- egalitarian awfulness.

So they refuse to examine their own motivations, their own actions, and how those actions affect others. They have effectively said "I'm all that matters." It's not that they don't believe that Trump is racist, it's that they don't care. It doesn't affect them, therefore it doesn't matter; and the cognitive dissonance this generates causes them to invent evasions and justifications for avoiding acknowledging the source and impact of that attitude. That's cultural racism, the refusal to examine the reasons we act the way we do, while continuing to support a culture and society permeated by institutional racism, and not caring about the impact it has on the targets of that racism. "As long as I get mine, I don't care enough about other people to change the way that I think or act."

Thank you for being a well spoken voice of reason on this otherwise ****** forum.
 
That's one way of looking at it.

The scary thing is, the other option is that you are feeling silly for having a practical joke work on you and now have to double down and just find some reason it was really racist.

Reminds me of a few old cartoons where someone gets a fake treasure map, and when they find this out they start digging anyway so as not to go home empty handed.
The whole point is that trolling or racism is a false dichotomy. Through the white supremacists trying to troll and trigger the libs it became a white supremacist symbol.

Yes, there are "straight" white supremacists like the Christchurch shooter who use the symbol "unironically" and then you have someone who likes Pepe the frog and has a flag of kekistan who is using it to troll people.

I suppose that such a person mightn't be racist, they're just very comfortable amongst racists and uncomfortable amongst non-whites, but that would be a really stupid thing to believe.

In the case of the alt-right Pepe-the frog crowd, they're wanabe hipster racists pretending to make a pretend racist sign, but one which accurately signals their racism to their friends.

If you are fourteen and think you are an edgelord, this might be convincing and amusing with the wafer-thin deniability that it's only a pretend racist sign. If not, it isn't.
 
I rarely agree with you, and I think your question here is a bit unfair, but it's sad that luchog can't see more nuance in people's decisions. People voted for Trump for a variety of reasons. I disagree with such a decision, in part because Trump is a crook and unlikely to ever do anything good for the average American, but I'm not going to presume that every Trump voter is evil because they voted for someone I consider to be, himself, evil. It's just unwarranted.

This is especially true when Hillary was the only other choice.
 

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