Facebook bans far right groups

[uke2se]

This, alone, is the most bizarre assertion in the discussion.

First, that we need some sort of signed form from a recognized organization to show that something is a known white supremacist symbol, yet we're to believe that "the left" fell for anything;

Second, that "the left" actually did anything but note that some white supremacists use the "OK" hand sign to communicate amongst one another - something plainly confirmed by the Christchurch shooter, Mike Cernovich, Richard Spencer, Milo Yawhatever etc.

The first is incoherent, the second willfully ignorant at best. Fix both.

This post nicely sums up the bizzare nature of the ostrich-posts in this thread.

 

[uke2se]

https://medium.com/s/story/does-the-ok-sign-actually-signify-white-power-or-what-6cf3309df985

Ok-sign was used by the extreme right before it became a "hoax" on 4-chan. ADL were wrong.

Case closed?

 

[Eddie Dane]

Except of course that the star of david was never uniquely jewish or considered especially jewish 200 years ago. The nazis and its use in military graveyards made it more associated with judaism that it was before. Kind of like the pink triangle has been adopted by the LGBT community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David

I did not know that. I always suspected that it was not unique to Judaism, the design is too basic for that. But I always thought it was more central to Judaism for a much longer time.

 

[I Am The Scum]

If you want to meet that burden instead of the easier one I suggested of known groups, go for it...

We already have the example of the Christchurch shooter, as well as many others. You have been made aware of this multiple times.

In addition, the previous post by Mumbles serves as a pretty good response to what you're saying, so I don't feel like I need to add anything else.

 

[jimbob]

Mate (or matess. I don't know for sure sorry)


The whole OK hand sign thing was a troll. A wind up. BS

Done by a few admittedly nasty probably pieces of work on one of the chan morphs.

The left fell for it.

But what the issue is for me personally is people actually use it in many shapes and forms, and I know I have probably over mentioned sign language

I haven't mentioned it but by uncle was deaf from birth (dead) and through him I learnt a bit of sign.

Probably over dramatic, but I don't want some dumb idiot in the US hitting some deaf dude for talking to his mate

And again, nobody - except the far right wants to associate the OK sign with white supremacy. What is happening is that far right groups are using it as such a symbol, for example in the photos at the following link:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white-power-symbol-or-just-right-wing-troll

The smirk that almost inevitably accompanies the “OK” sign, that simplest of hand signals, is the dead giveaway in the shroud of internet-age befuddlement: Does the sign, the thumb and forefinger joined together in a circle, the remaining three fingers splayed out behind, mean “all’s good?” Or does it mean “white power” instead?

The smirk gives away the proper answer: You’re being trolled.

Dismissing the spread of the hand signal as a hoax overlooks two hard realities: first, that its increasing use gives open license to actual racist ideologues to operate and recruit under the cover of the “plausible deniability” established by less ideological young trolls; and second, that any kind of wink-and-nudge interaction with the racist right is a direct route to its normalization.

So what does it mean when someone flashes the OK sign? In the end, it can mean almost anything, but primarily it’s one of three things:

• It can be a harmless use of its traditional meaning that all’s well.
• It can be an ironic attempt to troll liberals with a symbol chosen to “trigger” their inner “SJWs.”
• It can be a surreptitious way of signaling your presence to other white supremacists.

The first of these (and its most common, but also most declining, use) is harmless. But it can’t credibly be claimed by anyone who has a record of involvement with the many far-right elements that swirl both around the Trump White House and outside it as well. Nor can it be claimed by street-protesting Proud Boys chanting far-right slogans.

The second is less directly harmful, but hardly innocent of wreaking havoc. The normalization of the radical right under the rhetorical protection of self-proclaimed “centrists” and “libertarians,” particularly those who spread conspiracy theories and are often labeled the “alt-lite,” is a legacy that could last a generation or longer.

The third is, of course, reflective of a toxic worldview and authoritarian politics, bent primarily on the destruction of liberal democracy. At the moment, it remains the smallest bloc of the three.

Now I happen to disagree with their distinction between the second and third usages. Using a symbol that is intended to be read as a white power sign means that you are endorsing that. Being "ironic" isn't actually a defence - they are still happy for their communications to be thought of as supporting racism.

​

He, as I noted in a previous post you totally ignored, is a white supremacist wannabe, someone that takes up the beliefs and then sits in their mum's basement radicalising themselves on their webpages as they try hard to be part of something they aren't really a member of. They are followers that think that the grand manifesto and gesture will bring them glory and make them a part of the community. As I also noted they are far more dangerous that your normal organised WS group member exactly because they are on the outside trying to be noticed.

They aren't trolls, they are deluded idiots that have fallen for the exact same hoax you have. They think that flashing the symbol is so sooper secret code that shows that they are on the know, they are a part of the community, and in reality they are idiots and they aren't a part of any organisation.

In compassion, they are like the suicide bomber who thinks he is a part of ISIS just because he watched their videos online and spent time on a radical website.

The Proud boys get together and go on marches. Various white supremacist terrorists use the symbol. It is intended to be understood as a symbol of white supremacy in that usage.

As has been said many times before, CONTEXT MATTERS as does the intended communication.

The "OK" sign can be a symbol of white supremacy. It depends on the context of which it is used. How hard is that to comprehend?

Pretty straightforward if one can hold more than one idea in one's head at any one time.

The thing is that it is only racist in your mind because you have been told to believe it is racist, and you have believed it. The difference between this and the other things you keep on bringing up is what we know the origin of each of them, we know this one was created as a hoax deliberately to make Liberals look stupid for getting upset over something totally innocuous. That was the whole idea of it, to get you to believe the very thing you are believing, and it was to make you look stupid. And guess what, it worked, it makes you look stupid.

Just because you have fallen for this hoax doesn't suddenly make it true, and your desire to make it so by declaring that anyone doing it is clearly racist for using a racist symbol, still doesn't make it true. You are trying rationalise your own falling for their hoax by calling them all white supremacists and racists, rather than accepting that you managed to be fooled. You have to see it as racist trolling because that allows you to feel better about it and still be right, but it doesn't actually change reality, and in reality a bunch of right wingers fooled you into believing that something was racist to make you look foolish.

The more you push the barrow claiming that because you believe it, and others believe it, so that makes it true, just makes you look as silly as those that claim the Earth is flat because they believe it.

The trolls intend "libs" to see a white power sign. They intend other trolls to see them as making a sign that "libs" regard as a white power sign. That is using it as a symbol of white supremacy.

Making racist comments or using symbols that you intend to be understood as racist is not a neutral act. It is generally supporting racism, although one could, with sarcasm and care, possibly be intending to lampoon racism. However that is intended to be anti-racist, so again is not neutral, and generally needs lots of other context to highlight that.

Father Ted managed to have an episode where Ted made a series of racist jokes and got humiliated and Jack ended up dressed as a Nazi, without supporting racism, but that was one of the special cases.

Mainly because idiot racist jerks making monkey chants towards black people is a direct correlation to racism. I missed the 6 million chanting something at a holocaust remembrance, but would really like a link.

People making an "OK" sign with their hands is 99% of the time unless they are an idiot, saying ok or deaf and chatting

Baylor is claiming that, but nobody else. Even he probably doesn't really believe that Obama was making a white power symbol. Everyone else is claiming that context can indicate when it is intended to be used as a racist symbol.

 

[luchog]

Given my experience in this forum, I may be cynical, but I lean heavily towards this one in moist cases (newer people in particular).

I'm trying to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they are simply ostriches or trolls, but given the persistence and vehemence, and really twisted logic, of the denials, I'm starting to lean in that direction more and more.

At the very least, there is an astonishing amount of sheer pig-ignorance of history being displayed by the denialists. More below.

Here's the thing though, the symbol IS NOT RACIST!

The problem with that is that none of the symbols used by racists, are themselves racist. They're symbols. Symbols have a wide variety of meanings, depending on context. You cannot explain a symbol in a vacuum, because they don't exist in a vacuum; Context Is Everything.

"White supremacists using the OK sign is just trolling and not evidence of racism" is about as ignorant as it can get. As is the utterly bizarre "No True White Supremacist" tack being taken by some commentors here.

Let's start off with that, a "white supremacist" is a person who believes in the supremacy of the "white" race (the definition of "white" can vary a bit) over all other ethnic groups. That's what the term means, that is what it has always meant. Insisting that someone cannot be a "true" white supremacist unless they're a member of an officially-recognized organization is the most ludicrous special pleading argument I think I have ever seen here, and it borders on woo, quite frankly.

So, that being established, let's look at the history of this thing.

The OK sign is a long-established and well-known symbolic gesture with a particular meaning. It has been adopted by some white supremacists as a coded signal because of its superficial resemblance to the letters W and P, aka White Power, a very well established white supremacist slogan (I don't think anyone is disputing the validity of that slogan as a white supremacist signal, though if they are, there aren't enough eyeroll emoticons). Its use was originally intended as a hoax, but there are too many examples of white supremacists using it in all seriousness to ascribe all uses to "trolling".

Now, how does this square with the history of white supremacist symbology in history?

I've already posted about the history of the swastika, so just to summarize, the swastika in western European culture had a similar connotation as the OK gesture. It was widely known and used to convey a concept of prosperity and good fortune. For that reason, it was appropriated by one of the most notorious groups of white supremacists in history.

But is that the only example? Far from it. White supremacists have a long history of appropriating symbols and other phenomena for their own use.

Let's look at another well-known symbol, the long, pointed white hood and robes of the Ku Klux Klan. That uniform had a long-established history as an emblem of a certain practice of Roman Catholicism, and is still used as such today in Western Europe (although today it's generally more colourful). It's a symbol of the Holy Inquisition, a Roman Catholic institution dedicated to preserving the purity of doctrine, and rooting out heresy and heterodoxy (sometimes violently, sometimes not). It was appropriated by the KKK in mockery of the RC church, who they considered the enemies of Protestant American culture.

Let's look at the Roman salute, aka the Nazi salute. The Roman salute has a long history, although it's a bit misnamed. It originated in 18th century France in erroneous imitation of what was at the time perceived to be a Roman symbol of honor and allegiance (in fact, it was only documented as having been used by gladiators, "we who are about to die" and so on). It was adopted as an expression of allegiance to a central authority. The Roman salute saw wide use in France, and later in the US, where it was known as the Bellamy salute. The Roman/Bellamy salute was the original gesture made to pledge allegiance to the United States of America. It was adopted by the Nazis explicitly because it was well-known, commonly used, and associated with the authoritarian regime of ancient Rome. It wasn't until World War 2 that the Roman/Bellamy salute was replaced in the US pledge of allegiance with the hand over the heart gesture.

I don't think I need to explain to anyone the appropriation of the Christian symbol of the Cross, an emblem of redemption and sanctification, by the KKK as an emblem of supremacism and terror.

Incidentally, a lesser-known KKK symbol, the cross-and-shield, was also co-opted. It consists of a round shield, or a circle, with an equilateral cross superimposed on it. This is a symbol that goes back to neolithic times, and has had numerous meanings throughout history, and is typically known as the "sun wheel" or "sun cross". Mostly associated with worship of a sun god, it has been used by many religions throughout history. It's commonly used by neo-pagan religions such as Wicca, Celtic Reconstructionism, and Asatru. Various forms of the sun wheel/cross have also been appropriated by numerous white supremacist and fascist organizations, including the aforementioned KKK, and the Nazis; primarily because of its association with Germanic/Celtic paganism.

Which brings up the appropriation of religion by white nationalists. Leaving aside the obvious appropriation of Christianity, the use of pagan/neo-pagan religious symbology and practice by white nationalists has a long and sordid history, going back before the Nazis. The Thule Society was one of the most well-known of these, and its doctrines and symbols were one of the primary influences of Nazi ideology and practice. More recently, many white supremacists have appropriated an altered form of the Scandinavian neo-pagan Asatru religion, much to the horror of its non-white-supremacist practitioners (incidentally, some of my friends are Asatru). They have become so closely associated with the religion that its other adherents have been forced to stop identifying themselves as Asatru, sometimes adopting other names for their religion, to avoid being lumped in with the white supremacists.

To conclude, white nationalists and fascists have throughout their existence appropriated symbols and practices with denotative and connotative meanings that are well-established (and one would think incompatible) in the wider culture, specifically so that their worldview would be linked to those meanings. In doing so, they provide themselves a more positive image, increasing the likelihood of their being accepted by or integrated into mainstream culture, or allow themselves a mode of plausible deniability when their racist and fascist worldview is soundly rejected and opposed by mainstream culture ("just trolling, u mad bro?). While the use of the OK gesture as a "white power" symbol may have originally been intended as a joke, it is precisely for that reason it has been appropriated by white supremacists as a coded signal of their worldview. This is not "stupid racists not getting the joke", this is in fact very calculated and well-supported by historical precedent.

As a final aside, trolling using racist terminology and iconography is, itself, an act of racism. There simply is no other reasonable explanation for it. It may not be the same level of racism as setting fire to a cross on someone's front lawn, but it's still racism. Its use says far more about the user than its intended target.

 

[smartcooky]

When the Freemasons adopted the Star of David, the Jews didn't just go 'Aw shucks, well you guys keep it then'..

Err, a technicality

The six pointed star used by Masons is not the Star of David, Its actually a pair of interlocked triangles, and represents part of the Seal of Solomon. King Solomon is a very important character in Freemasonry.

The Star of David has only been used as a symbol of by the Jews since about the 12th/13th century, which is about the time that Freemasons began using it. Its more likely that this symbol has a common origin, than it is from one group adopting after it was well established in use by the other.

 

[Baylor]

You're only partially right(but at least not totally wrong for a change). You see, to people in Africa, Obama symbolizes hope. To many people in America, he symbolizes a great moment in history, where our country finally came of age. To people in Europe he's a symbol of a bygone era when the trailer trash wasn't setting US foreign policy. To Low-IQ-Cauc Breeders, he symbolizes the end of civilization. At your barbecue, I'm sure he'd symbolize yet something else. ("There go the property values", amirite?)

One of the more bizarre 'as-long-as-I-get-the-last-word-I-win' posts I've seen.

 

[Cainkane1]

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ht-groups-including-bnp-edl-and-britain-first


Not sure if this is a UK only thing; all the organisations and people referred to are UK based. Is this happening in other countries too?

The left wing nuts are as bad as the right wing nuts. I hope Antifa has been banned.

 

[I Am The Scum]

I want to thank Luchog for the excellent analysis of symbolism. "What does this symbol actually mean?" does entail a kind of false dichotomy, as it implies there is one correct answer to the question. It's an easy trap to fall into, though I would hope after the explanation, we won't have that problem any more.

In addition, I wanted to point out this video, which does a good job breaking down how alt-right strategy is affecting this discussion (I particularly liked the section on Schrodinger's Douchebag).

 

[Baylor]

I want to thank Luchog for the excellent analysis of symbolism. "What does this symbol actually mean?" does entail a kind of false dichotomy, as it implies there is one correct answer to the question. It's an easy trap to fall into, though I would hope after the explanation, we won't have that problem any more.

Absolutely. You and luchdog have done an excellent job explaining that the 'ok' sign is indeed a white supremacist symbol used by white supremacist to covertly spread their message of hate.

Like this white supremacist showing solidarity to her fellow white supremacists.
(Image blurred in order to prevent further victimization of oppressed persons)

 

[I Am The Scum]

Stop strawmanning, Baylor.

 

[Baylor]

Now you DON'T think the ok sign is a symbol of white supremacy?

 

[Checkmite]

Baylor's antics are a textbook example of what I was referring to another thread when talking about the futility of engaging a bad-faith opponent in debate.

 

[I Am The Scum]

Now you DON'T think the ok sign is a symbol of white supremacy?

My views on symbolism are literally in the section you quoted. You're just making an ass of yourself.

 

[arthwollipot]

Just googled

The "OK" sign now means white supremacist?

That one passed me by.

No, it doesn't. And this is what is annoying the crap out of me in this discussion. Unless it's changed in the last couple of weeks...

This is the OK sign:

This is the white supremacist sign, which also happens to be the American Sign Language sign for a common insult:

 

[smartcooky]

The left wing nuts are as bad as the right wing nuts. I hope Antifa has been banned.

From the link in the quote in your post...

In a statement, the far-right group Knights Templar International said it was “horrified” by the ban, and that it was exploring legal options. “Facebook has deemed our Christian organisation as dangerous and de-platformed us despite never being charged, let alone found guilty of any crime whatsoever,” a spokesman said. “This is a development that would have made the Soviets blush.”​

A hilarious statement, not only for its sheer hyperbole, but for its total ignorance too. In the former Soviet Union, a group like KTI would not even be able to exist. If people tried to get it formed, it would get slammed down, and those people would find themselves on a chain gain in a Siberian Gulag.

You don't have to commit a crime to be banned from Facebook, you just have to violate their terms of use; the terms of use you agree to when you sign up.

What has happened to them here being banned from Facebook is the equivalent of not being allowed to be published in Pravda

 

[smartcooky]

No, it doesn't. And this is what is annoying the crap out of me in this discussion. Unless it's changed in the last couple of weeks...

This is the OK sign:

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/B48sHPsm.jpg[/qimg]

This is the white supremacist sign, which also happens to be the American Sign Language sign for a common insult:

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/bDYKa2Cl.jpg[/qimg]

So white supremacists are calling each other a-holes.... well, that's appropriate IMO!

 

[sadhatter]

Yes and that is exactly like chanting 6 million more at a holocaust remembrance, it is to wind up the libs. Trolling pure and simple. As it is trolling we can not say anything about those doing it other than that they are trolling the libs.


Like they fell for the idea that an SS flag was racist too, but we have the US marines saying it is not, so officially we can not think someone with just SS symbols is a racist.

The left fell for it because people started using it as such. I know I know you don't think the christchurch shooter really is a white supremacist and just a troll, as we have no solid evidence of full on membership in a properly recognized white supremacist group. Until we have that he is just a troll who is mentally ill to shoot people. Why should we think his "manifesto" is anything but an elaborate triggering of the libs after all?

That's one way of looking at it.

The scary thing is, the other option is that you are feeling silly for having a practical joke work on you and now have to double down and just find some reason it was really racist.

Reminds me of a few old cartoons where someone gets a fake treasure map, and when they find this out they start digging anyway so as not to go home empty handed.

 

[jimbob]

That's one way of looking at it.

The scary thing is, the other option is that you are feeling silly for having a practical joke work on you and now have to double down and just find some reason it was really racist.

Reminds me of a few old cartoons where someone gets a fake treasure map, and when they find this out they start digging anyway so as not to go home empty handed.

Not really, when avowed racists use it and intend it to be taken as a racist symbol. Unless you're arguing that the Christchurch shooter was pretending to be a racist when he made that symbol.