• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Ex CIA Agent: Roswell Really Happened

Well that still leaves open my question though, doesn't it? It seems that those on either side of the debate have not checked the witness statements on this matter. It is important, in my view, as it provides some indication of the degree of paranoia on the part of the miltary, at that time.
I have the same question. If Brazel was held in custody for a week, as was claimed, why haven't any proponents of the flying saucer WAG found any documents to show it? It's a good question and one that one of the flying saucer proponents should answer.

Brazel, had to be "detained" as some point for any kind of interrogation to take place, and we know that he underwent questioning. How long that detention was, is simply my question.
How are you defining the word "detained" in this context? I don't think anyone doubts that Mac Brazel was questioned by the military since he found remnants of a top secret project. "Detained" may conjure up images of them slapping gyves upon his wrists and "interrogation" the image of the bright white lamp in his face.

The material found did seem terrestial as you say at first inspection, and agreed not the stuff of any kind of rigid and robust aeronautic vehicle that one would expect, so what was the point of Haut, the RAAF PR man, giving the "disc" press release? It just seems a very odd thing to do, unless it was part of a security smokescreen, which really was rather redundant under these circumstances.
It must not have seemed redundant at the time. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, we can say it was ill-advised.
 
I have the same question. If Brazel was held in custody for a week, as was claimed, why haven't any proponents of the flying saucer WAG found any documents to show it? It's a good question and one that one of the flying saucer proponents should answer.

The other side though are claiming it wasn't true, which it may well not be, but what reason do they give for saying that, apart from the amount of time passing affecting memory of witnesses, which is all that has been offered as a reason to date, at least on this thread.

How are you defining the word "detained" in this context? I don't think anyone doubts that Mac Brazel was questioned by the military since he found remnants of a top secret project. "Detained" may conjure up images of them slapping gyves upon his wrists and "interrogation" the image of the bright white lamp in his face.

Well you have to be "detained" to be questioned by the military. If he chose not to stay to be questioned, would he have had the choice to walk away? If he did have the choice, then indeed he wasn't detained in the context that we are discussing. However, we don't know that, and that is why I am asking the simple question.

It must not have seemed redundant at the time. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, we can say it was ill-advised.

What possible reason at the time would make it not redundant, when it was far easier and less freaky and controversial to quote the truth i.e. a collection of remnants from a weather balloon has been found on a ranch. After all, Haut was supposed to be a professional PR guy for the RAAF, not some kind of woo rumour mongerer.
 
The other side though are claiming it wasn't true, which it may well not be, but what reason do they give for saying that, apart from the amount of time passing affecting memory of witnesses, which is all that has been offered as a reason to date, at least on this thread.
I would think the ones making the positive claim that Mac Brazel was kept against his will for a week by the military would need to provide the evidence for it, wouldn't you? Something more than 2nd hand, 30+ years after the fact hearsay. It should be a simple task for them to provide that documentation, if it had happened.

Well you have to be "detained" to be questioned by the military. If he chose not to stay to be questioned, would he have had the choice to walk away? If he did have the choice, then indeed he wasn't detained in the context that we are discussing. However, we don't know that, and that is why I am asking the simple question.
Nope, you don't have to be detained at all. I believe that Brazel voluntarily offered his story to the military. What would be the military's purpose in then arresting him and throwing him in chokey for a week only to release him later? Has that part ever made sense to you?

What possible reason at the time would make it not redundant, when it was far easier and less freaky and controversial to quote the truth i.e. a collection of remnants from a weather balloon has been found on a ranch. After all, Haut was supposed to be a professional PR guy for the RAAF, not some kind of woo rumour mongerer.
Excellent question! Especially as we now have the benefit of that 20/20 hindsight I referred to earlier. What rationale springs to your mind?
 
Well that still leaves open my question though, doesn't it? It seems that those on either side of the debate have not checked the witness statements on this matter. It is important, in my view, as it provides some indication of the degree of paranoia on the part of the miltary, at that time.

The default state of New Mexico ranchers is "not being detained by the military". As a result, if someone thinks that this detention actually happened, it's up to them to provide evidence that it did happen. It's not the responsibility of those who don't think it happened to prove it didn't happen.

Brazel, had to be "detained" as some point for any kind of interrogation to take place, and we know that he underwent questioning.

Why would he have to be "detained"? The police and even the FBI take witness statements from all kinds of people for all kinds of investigative reports, without ever having to detain them.

And where would he have been detained? Contemporary newspaper accounts of Brazel's interaction with the military show that Major Marcel went out to his ranch, and their conversation was cordial enough for the two of them to actually attempt to reconstruct the wreckage Brazel found together at Brazel's house.

How long that detention was, is simply my question.

Couldn't have been that long. The same contemporary newspapers say Brazel first reported the wreckage to Chaves County Sheriff George Wilcox on July 6th, which is when Wilcox contacted the military. Yet, on July 8th, Brazel was still free enough to give interviews at the studios of the local radio station KGFL and the offices of the newspaper the Roswell Daily Record.

The material found did seem terrestial as you say at first inspection, and agreed not the stuff of any kind of rigid and robust aeronautic vehicle that one would expect, so what was the point of Haut, the RAAF PR man, giving the "disc" press release?

It's pretty much generally accepted that Haut was simply passing on a release written by Colonel Blanchard, the Roswell base commander, and didn't have any involvement with the wreckage or Brazel or anything else.

As for why, "flying saucers" were everywhere in the news at that time. Brazel himself said he only mentioned the wreckage to the sheriff because Kenneth Arnold's famous report was fresh in his mind. He reports it to the sheriff as a saucer, the sheriff reports it to the military as a saucer, Marcel reports it to the base commander as a saucer, and so the commander says "tell everyone we have a saucer".

Remember, all this happened within the space of a couple of days, and was not any secret at all - the press release ran in the Roswell newspaper only the day before the lengthy interview with Brazel did. And, given the way stories were transmitted by wire, in newspapers in most of the country both stories ran the same day.
 
Brazel, had to be "detained" as some point for any kind of interrogation to take place, and we know that he underwent questioning.
This has already been addressed but I'll add my bit.

*Ring*
Mac: Hello, Mac here.
Sheriff: Hey Mac. The Sheriff here. How's the missus?
Mac: Good. What's up?
Sheriff: I've got some uniform from the AF Base here in my office who wants to talk with you. Can you come on down?
Mac: Uh, I guess. Now?
Sheriff: Sure. We'll all go over to the Greasy Spoon for some Joe and gab. See ya in a half hour?
Mac: Uh, OK. Bye.
*Click*

How long that detention was, is simply my question.
Assumes facts not in evidence. I think this is the "begging the question" fallacy.
 
The default state of New Mexico ranchers is "not being detained by the military". As a result, if someone thinks that this detention actually happened, it's up to them to provide evidence that it did happen. It's not the responsibility of those who don't think it happened to prove it didn't happen.

I held a party in my barn in a north Nottinghamshire village thirty five years ago. About forty people attended. That is a default situation for something that truthfully happened. If you wish to question that, then you may wish to provide evidence to refute it. It is not a paranormal claim, and it is quite likely to have happened in reality. Why would you question my personal testimony?

Members of the Brazel family and neighbours, both stated that around thirty five years after the alleged event, that Mac Brazel was detained for a period of time by the military, over a matter of security, that could have been directly related to the secret Project Mogul. Why could this not be a better default scenario, than the one that you cited, in the absence of any witness alternative supporting statements? You may still of course be correct that Brazel was not detained in the way that has been stated, but it is certainly not a given default scenario, as you assert.
Why would he have to be "detained"? The police and even the FBI take witness statements from all kinds of people for all kinds of investigative reports, without ever having to detain them.

I thought that would have been obvious when a state secret was involved, whatever the nature of that secret was.

And where would he have been detained? Contemporary newspaper accounts of Brazel's interaction with the military show that Major Marcel went out to his ranch, and their conversation was cordial enough for the two of them to actually attempt to reconstruct the wreckage Brazel found together at Brazel's house.

Who knows, but is it really relevant to the point in question. If it was necessary for Brazel to be detained for questioning, he would have been detained at an appropriate venue.

Couldn't have been that long. The same contemporary newspapers say Brazel first reported the wreckage to Chaves County Sheriff George Wilcox on July 6th, which is when Wilcox contacted the military. Yet, on July 8th, Brazel was still free enough to give interviews at the studios of the local radio station KGFL and the offices of the newspaper the Roswell Daily Record.

That is a fair point. Witness statements have varied as to the length of the detention. It ranges from a three days, to five days, to a full week. Brazel was also reported by his neighbours, to be seen in the local town during the alleged period of detention escorted by the military. They added that he ignored them as he walked by, and eventually refused to discuss any aspect of the case again after his release.


It's pretty much generally accepted that Haut was simply passing on a release written by Colonel Blanchard, the Roswell base commander, and didn't have any involvement with the wreckage or Brazel or anything else.

So the reponsibility passes to Blanchard. It still does not change the fact that military were responsible for the initial woo explanation.
As for why, "flying saucers" were everywhere in the news at that time. Brazel himself said he only mentioned the wreckage to the sheriff because Kenneth Arnold's famous report was fresh in his mind. He reports it to the sheriff as a saucer, the sheriff reports it to the military as a saucer, Marcel reports it to the base commander as a saucer, and so the commander says "tell everyone we have a saucer".

This does have a ring of truth about it, as Brazel probably came into contact with material he was not familiar with in the first instance, but nevertheless, still man-made. But why sticks and rubber and tin foil could be described as remnants of a saucer or disc is beyond credibility.
Remember, all this happened within the space of a couple of days, and was not any secret at all - the press release ran in the Roswell newspaper only the day before the lengthy interview with Brazel did. And, given the way stories were transmitted by wire, in newspapers in most of the country both stories ran the same day.

I don't think the speed of events and the press releases has any bearing on the issue. The miltary released early, a rather odd explanation for familiar weather balloon material. To be kind, it is rather eccentric behaviour, unbecoming of the defenders of the nation.
 
I held a party in my barn in a north Nottinghamshire village thirty five years ago. About forty people attended. That is a default situation for something that truthfully happened. If you wish to question that, then you may wish to provide evidence to refute it. It is not a paranormal claim, and it is quite likely to have happened in reality. Why would you question my personal testimony?

No. Because the default state of people in Nottinghamshire village is "not attending a party". If you think it's material that such an event took place, you have to provide some supporting evidence for it.

We have no responsibility whatsoever to disprove that any event happened. You have the responsibility to prove it did happen.

Members of the Brazel family and neighbours, both stated that around thirty five years after the alleged event, that Mac Brazel was detained for a period of time by the military, over a matter of security, that could have been directly related to the secret Project Mogul. Why could this not be a better default scenario, than the one that you cited, in the absence of any witness alternative supporting statements? You may still of course be correct that Brazel was not detained in the way that has been stated, but it is certainly not a given default scenario, as you assert.

Yes it is. The null hypothesis is the default one, especially when dealing with nearly forty-year-old recollections of an event that is purported to be extremely out of the ordinary.

And that goes double when there's no contemporary evidence whatsoever to corroborate these decades-later recollections.


I thought that would have been obvious when a state secret was involved, whatever the nature of that secret was.

You'd be wrong. The real world doesn't work like the X-Files.

Who knows, but is it really relevant to the point in question. If it was necessary for Brazel to be detained for questioning, he would have been detained at an appropriate venue.

And if it wasn't necessary, he wouldn't have been. So it's up to you to show that he was, indeed, detained.

That is a fair point. Witness statements have varied as to the length of the detention. It ranges from a three days, to five days, to a full week.

Discrepancies which highlight the requirement for actual corroborating evidence.

Brazel was also reported by his neighbours, to be seen in the local town during the alleged period of detention escorted by the military. They added that he ignored them as he walked by, and eventually refused to discuss any aspect of the case again after his release.

Which is odd, since right there in the July 8th newspaper story, Brazel is quoted as stating he regrets ever saying anything and that the publicity surrounding his find made him swear that he wouldn't ever report anything he ever found on his ranch again unless it was an actual bomb.

A week's military detention to get him to refuse to talk after that point would seem to be rather redundant. In fact, it has all the hallmarks of a much later addition to the story, designed to enhance the aura of mystery and cover-up surrounding events.

That's why corroborating evidence is needed, to separate the later confabulations from the actual facts.

So the reponsibility passes to Blanchard. It still does not change the fact that military were responsible for the initial woo explanation.

Yes. Something that they regretted jumping the gun on pretty much as soon as it happened. Anyone with any experience with the military will have no hesitation whatsoever in telling you that the military makes mistakes.

This does have a ring of truth about it, as Brazel probably came into contact with material he was not familiar with in the first instance, but nevertheless, still man-made. But why sticks and rubber and tin foil could be described as remnants of a saucer or disc is beyond credibility.

And yet, that's exactly what happened. And long before the military even started backtracking on the saucer story, too, so it can't have been something concocted for their coverup story.
 
Witness statements have varied as to the length of the detention. It ranges from a three days, to five days, to a full week. Brazel was also reported by his neighbours, to be seen in the local town during the alleged period of detention escorted by the military. They added that he ignored them as he walked by, and eventually refused to discuss any aspect of the case again after his release.

I watched that same episode.
 
No. Because the default state of people in Nottinghamshire village is "not attending a party".

If you knew my village people in the seventies, you would not have written that. :-)

We have no responsibility whatsoever to disprove that any event happened. You have the responsibility to prove it did happen.

In a court of law, if you challenged a witness statement to get to the truth, you would have to justify the reason for the challenge. I am simply seeking the truth, if that is at all possible now in this scenario. I repeat all that has been presented so far on this thread, is memory failure, which is a cop out.

And that goes double when there's no contemporary evidence whatsoever to corroborate these decades-later recollections.

I have to repeat that there must be administrative military records of a detention if that detention took place. No one on either side of the argument, seems to have checked this out.

You'd be wrong. The real world doesn't work like the X-Files.

Not in a conspiratorial sort of way, yes, but plenty of examples in real life in a cock-up sort of way, which so far seems the most likely explanation, at least to me.

Discrepancies which highlight the requirement for actual corroborating evidence.

Totally agree. See my comments above in several posts.

Which is odd, since right there in the July 8th newspaper story, Brazel is quoted as stating he regrets ever saying anything and that the publicity surrounding his find made him swear that he wouldn't ever report anything he ever found on his ranch again unless it was an actual bomb.

A week's military detention to get him to refuse to talk after that point would seem to be rather redundant. In fact, it has all the hallmarks of a much later addition to the story, designed to enhance the aura of mystery and cover-up surrounding events.

That's why corroborating evidence is needed, to separate the later confabulations from the actual facts.

Again, we are in agreement.

Yes. Something that they regretted jumping the gun on pretty much as soon as it happened. Anyone with any experience with the military will have no hesitation whatsoever in telling you that the military makes mistakes.

A monumental mistake on that occasion, which does indeed suggest my cock-up rather than conspiracy theory, is probably the correct one.
 
Last edited:
In a court of law, if you challenged a witness statement to get to the truth, you would have to justify the reason for the challenge. I am simply seeking the truth, if that is at all possible now in this scenario. I repeat all that has been presented so far on this thread, is memory failure, which is a cop out.

In a court of law, an accused need not do anything to prove his innocence. It is up to the prosecution to prove him guilty.

The null hypothesis remains that Brazel was not detained.
 
Last edited:
I have to repeat that there must be administrative military records of a detention if that detention took place. No one on either side of the argument, seems to have checked this out.

And, again, the onus is on those who think there was a detention to seek out and publicize those records.

It's not the job of people who don't think Brazel was detained to go looking for records they don't believe exist.
 
Oh. Goody. Goody. A UFO thread!

:popcorn6

We haven't had one of these for such a long time. And I sorta miss Mr. RRRRamjet. :rolleyes:
 
The military (nor any other authority of which I am aware) keeps lists of persons who were not detained. The Roswell AAF records for the period have already been the subject of numerous FOIA requests. If they contained references to any persons detained for questioning you would think that would have come to light by now.
 
In a court of law, an accused need not do anything to prove his innocence. It is up to the prosecution to prove him guilty.

I never mentioned the accused. I am talking about witnesses for both the defence and the prosecution, who in turn will be questioned on their statements to determine both the relevance and truthfulness. Other evidence will be introduced to undermine or reinforce these statements, as the case may be, and what a jolly good job too!
 
The military (nor any other authority of which I am aware) keeps lists of persons who were not detained.

....and your point is?

My point was they must keep records of people who were detained and questioned. Minutes of the questioning, as in police records perhaps also exists for detentions.

The Roswell AAF records for the period have already been the subject of numerous FOIA requests. If they contained references to any persons detained for questioning you would think that would have come to light by now.

I suppose it would depend on what records were requested for scrutiny.

However, it could also mean that neither side of the argument care too much about proving or disproving the detention issue. Funny that, I am now beginning to feel the same way.
 
....and your point is?

My point was they must keep records of people who were detained and questioned. Minutes of the questioning, as in police records perhaps also exists for detentions.



I suppose it would depend on what records were requested for scrutiny.

However, it could also mean that neither side of the argument care too much about proving or disproving the detention issue. Funny that, I am now beginning to feel the same way.

You are asking for evidence that a person was not detained (see your post #30 in this thread). No positive evidence would exist denying an event which did not occur. The most that could be expected from records is a lack of indication that the event did occur (which seems to be the case). Note that there is no evidence that Brazel publicly claimed such during his lifetime, only anecdotal statements after his death. It's incumbent on those claiming an event took place to provide evidence.
 
However, it could also mean that neither side of the argument care too much about proving or disproving the detention issue. Funny that, I am now beginning to feel the same way.

Or it could mean that you don't care enough to find out for yourself and want others to do your leg work. If you are that interested, go find out. If you aren't, don't ask.
 

Back
Top Bottom