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Ethics of Posting

Phil63 said:
Oh S - regarding the term allopathy. First of all it isn't meant to be a deragotory term. It also doesn't mean treating with opposites - that's antipathy. Allopathy just means treatments that are not similar to the symproms of the disease. Different from the disease. Isopathy is same as the disease, homeopathy is like the disease, antipathy is opposite of the disease and allopathy just means different.

I don't think it was meant to give homeopathy and allopathy equal status either - in fact back when homeopathy came about the last thing it would want to be likened to would be allopathy. Remember back then the treatments were based on reducing humours in the body - bloodletting, leeching, purging, poisonings. Even if you believe homeopathy is nothing - back then nothing was better than the allopathic treatments.
Whatever it may or may not have been meant as, "allopathy" is most certainly offensive today to anybody who knows the whys and wherefores of a scientific approach to medicine. Which brings me to comment on your second paragraph. Hahnemann's first edition of Organon was published in 1810, well into a French medical revolution (french clinical school) that ultimately led to modern medicine. The French had already abandoned medical heroics for clinical study.

Less than ten years after Organon, droves of American doctors went to France to learn the methods of the French clinical school. They were already spreading those practices in this country as Hahnemann was beginning to grow his backward-looking movement. He reached back to magical "laws of similars" notions and nostrums already hundreds of years old. He invented little here. Medieval texts are replete with similar "reasoning". He was simply repackaging and selling it.

This idea that Hahnemann was ahead of his time is homeopathic propaganda, belied by a read of medical history. It rates with the specious homeopathic comparisons between Hahnemann's use of "small doses" and Jenner's vaccinations. It conveniently omits the facts, in this latter case, the developing germ theory of disease.
 
Whatever it may or may not have been meant as, "allopathy" is most certainly offensive today to anybody who knows the whys and wherefores of a scientific approach to medicine

Is that so? I guess many of the medical colleges near me are not privvy to the whys and wherefores of a scientific approach to medicine then because apparently they do not find the term offensive.

http://www.princetonreview.com/medical/research/articles/decide/allopathic.asp

http://www.neaahp.org/healthlinks.html#allopathic

http://www.providence.edu/Premed/Health+Professions/Allopathic+Medicine.htm

http://www.careercenter.uiuc.edu/ws03/health/amed.asp
 
More to the point, "allopathy" is meaningless within the scientific paradigm. Within the homeopathic paradigm, it fits conventional medicine, beause in homeopathy it is believed that only symptoms are important, but the purpose of modern medicine is not to induce symptoms, but to target causes.

Thus, we might well say that homeopaths are entitled to use the term about conventional medicine, speaking from their paradigm.

Obviously, by the same reasoning, people working from the scientific paradigm are equally entitled to use the term "shaken water" about homeopathic drugs ;).

None of this is, of course, getting us anywhere.

Hans
 
Phil63 said:


Is that so? I guess many of the medical colleges near me are not privvy to the whys and wherefores of a scientific approach to medicine then because apparently they do not find the term offensive.

http://www.princetonreview.com/medical/research/articles/decide/allopathic.asp
You apparently miss that Princeton gives equal billing to "chiropractic." So-called "complementary" medicine has invaded schools currently plagued by postmodernist inanity. And, yes, I would say Princeton is one such school and that the fools in charge of permitting this nonsense are clearly do not understand the whys and wherefores of a scientific approach.
 
I've just done a search for the word allopathy across a reasonble size uni libiary. No mentions.
 
BillHoyt said:

You apparently miss that Princeton gives equal billing to "chiropractic." So-called "complementary" medicine has invaded schools currently plagued by postmodernist inanity. And, yes, I would say Princeton is one such school and that the fools in charge of permitting this nonsense are clearly do not understand the whys and wherefores of a scientific approach.

Bloody Hell! The page on chiropractic just launches into its spiel as if this was accepted fact.

Looking at the site, does it have anything to do with Princeton the university, or is it a middleman company trading off that well-known name?
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:


Bloody Hell! The page on chiropractic just launches into its spiel as if this was accepted fact.

Looking at the site, does it have anything to do with Princeton the university, or is it a middleman company trading off that well-known name?
Good catch, BSM. I didn't notice that it wasn't ".edu" I take back what I said about "Princeton." It only applies to this "Princeton Review" site, which is not, as Phil claims, a medical school.

It gets better, though. Providence college is also not a medical school, but a school operated by Domincan friars. It offers no medical degrees. The page cited discusses its premed program.

Phil/Barb, this is your opportunity to regain credibility. Please choose your next post wisely.
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
http://www.careercenter.uiuc.edu/ws03/health/amed.asp

This is more depressing though!

I have access to an emeritus professor at UofI who is very much a sceptic and let him poke them in the eye with a stick.

Don't get too worked up about the school as a whole. Go to the med school site itself. I can't find a mention of "allopathy" there. Looks like the career people are guilty of the same inane "inclusivity" here as seen at the other site.

Phil / Barb, you there to try to explain why you graced us with these red herrings? Also, please keep in mind I have not forgotten the bloodletting claims whose challenge you dodged.
 
BillHoyt said:


Don't get too worked up about the school as a whole. Go to the med school site itself. I can't find a mention of "allopathy" there. Looks like the career people are guilty of the same inane "inclusivity" here as seen at the other site.

They may feel a little less relaxed about inclusivity now I've unleashed sceptic emeritus on them.

I'll let you know.
 
oh you cynic - no red herring unleashed. I did agoogle search on medical school and allopathy and that was some of what surfaced that looked pretty credible. I don't have the time to go through everything with the fine tooth comb you guys apparently do - my priorities are many and this site is last on the list. The general point of my post - which you guys never seem to focus on is that there are many folks using the term allopathy and many that are totally unaffiliated with alternative medicine. It is not meant as a derogatory term.

I don't know, not one of you have bothered to answer my question - this seems to be a very one sided effort here. I'm done.
 
Mmm, Phil63, I'm sure you appreciate that an active thread like this one sometimes go off on a tangent. It is quite common to see people restate their questions from earlier posts. Only when you have done this repeatedly, it is a good indication that nobody WANTS to answer.

I have looked back over the thread and my best bet on what your questions were are these, which I then try to give my answers to:


Phil63 said:
So I can't have a belief based on my own experience and my interpretation of that experience without having to defend it to someone I have never met and someone who thinks I am a weasel? Please. I have every right to believe in the effectiveness of homeopathy based on my experience.

Of course you have the right to believe what you choose, for whatever reason you choose. The problem comes when you present it as EVIDENCE.

I give "science" the same credence you guys do.

Excuse me, but I don't believe that. If you did, you would be prepared to discard your belief-based system if observational evidence contradicted it. I have had a number of very intriguing experiences in my life, several of which I initially took as sign of paranormal events. I have eventually had to discard them all in the face of evidence.

I have been on the recieving end of drugs that had been approved for my condition based on the scientific studies - until people started dying and whoops we need to take it off the market.

Drugs get taken off the market sometimes based on a handful of adverse events, out of tens of thousands of treated patients. There is no way to foresee such events for sure. Only by rigorous reporting systems can such risks be minimized. In comparison, no such follow-up systems exist within homeopathy. You may say that homeopathy does not have long-term effects, but the truth is that you simply don't know.

Science in my opinion is no better than experience - you can disagree - you can say I am a loon, heck you guys have already said worse.

At least I would say that you are wrong, and that you evidently do not understand how science works.

In fact let me ask a genuine question. I am a patient with a chronic incurable disease. Itis debilitating. I was diagnosed a decade ago and spent about 7 years seeing MD's, specialists, etc and being put on one drug after the other with NO amelioration of my symptoms. Some of the drugs caused severe side effects, others had mild side effects but none helped the condition AT ALL. I lost a baby from one of the medicines because it had been considered safe during pregnancy - until that study changed and they decided that the drug was lethal to an unborn fetus. I never questioned my doctors (several) and I was a very dutiful patient - always doing what I was told. This went on for so so long. If you haven't suffered a debilitating illness you just can't sympathize with the frusteration adn utter hopelessness of the situation. Finally - after 7 years I gave up, sick and tired of it all. I began searching for alternatives and found chiropractic. I went to the chiropractor for a year with no results, although I did develop a back pain that only subsided after I stopped treatment. I saw an accupunturist twice with no results and I hated that. I tried herbal medicines, stuff from the health food store and the internet - still no results. One day, while searching for information on an herbal product I came across a homeopathy site and was intrigued. I started looking into what it was and it took awhile but I finally decided to go for treatment. I was so amazed at the results I scrapped my previous professional plans and decided to become a homeopath. After a recent evaluation by my specialist he said my results were so good he can't really say if I still qualify as havign the diseas anymore. He told me "whatever it is you are doing - keep doing it."

Yours is a story of an "incurable" disease that went away. You tried a lot of different treatments, but since the disease, whatever it is, has been deemed incurable, it is not surprising that results were unsatisfactory. However, one day, despite odds, you got better. This happens, and it is very usual for patients like you to assume that the treatment that they happened to be trying at that time was the one that cured them. What else should you think? From a scientific POV, however, that is not good enough: It is no more than circumstantial evidence, only after thorough tests can we conclude that the treatment was actually the cause of your cure.

SO here is my question - I consider the turning point of the story when I stopped allopathic treatment - what would you have had me do? How would you guys have rewritten this story? Would I still be at the doctors, a guinea pig for different meds? continuing to suffer from side effects (some of which were pretty serious?)
Seriously, how do you, the scientists, the skeptics, change this story???? You guys think I am an idiot for believing in homeopathy - I look back at those 7 wasted years and think I am an idiot for believing in allopathy for my condition for so long.

That is understandable, but intellectually, you should be able to concede that there is no proof of a causality. Maybe your illness lasted 7 years, then went away by itself. Maybe it would have done so without treatment, or with another treatment. Let me ask you a "rewrite story question": Let us imagine that the treatment you were attempting when you became better was, say, Cranio Sacral Therapy. Would you now be a firm believer in CST?

Further - how can I not believe in homeopathy? If you lived my story - how could you not? Because the studies disagree - well, I say screw the studies. I have my life back and it was the studies that had me sick from meds that did nothing. It was the studies that took the life of my first child. Yeah - screw the damn studies, to me they mean nothing. Defensive about homeopathy, wouldn't you be???

However, you might be wrong. Not knowing neither your disease nor the treatment you received, I cannot judge if your doctors made a mistake (and I'm not qualified to do that anyway), but studies cannot guarantee everything. In short, you cannot prove a negative; you can make studies that prove what a medicine DOES, but you cannot make studies that proves what it DOES NOT do.

So skeptic friends That is why I believe in homeopathy. Is my "cure" a coincidence???? I am willing to say it is possible though a pretty darn good one if it is. Have I seen a bunch of these coincidences?? Yes.

Phil/Barb, EVERY regimen can present stories of remarkable cures; "allopathy", aroma therapy, crystal therapy, primitive witch doctors, faith healing, prayer healing, holy places, etc. etc. I could line up thousands of such stories. They can't all be true.

Instead of focusing on studies that are difficult to do concerning homeopathic treatment due to the nature of homeopathy and that there are 3000 remedies and the right one must be chosen on an individual basis and this can take a long time depending ont he pratcitioner - I would find it interesting to examone the records of homeopaths who have "cured" incurable diseases and see if the cures can be verified by diagnostic tests and see if the homeopathic cures are greater than spontaneous cures for the same diseases.

Youp, fine, but that is not enough. You need to look at ALL their cases, not just the ones that went right. For example, Samual Hahnemann practiced homeopathy for several decades, yet all we have from him is a dozen case stories. That is not much from a lifetime of practice. Who selected which ones to record? Are they representative?

And, of course, for the trial you propose, since homeopathy does not recognize diagnosing a disease by name, how could a comparison be made?


The End

Hans
 
Phil63 said:
oh you cynic - no red herring unleashed. I did agoogle search on medical school and allopathy and that was some of what surfaced that looked pretty credible. I don't have the time to go through everything with the fine tooth comb you guys apparently do - my priorities are many and this site is last on the list. The general point of my post - which you guys never seem to focus on is that there are many folks using the term allopathy and many that are totally unaffiliated with alternative medicine. It is not meant as a derogatory term.

I don't know, not one of you have bothered to answer my question - this seems to be a very one sided effort here. I'm done.
You "don't have the time to go through everything with the fine tooth comb", yet this is a "very one sided effort here?" The one sided effort, then, must refer to the skeptic's side, as we do take the time to check "facts" before we post them.
 
Phil/Barb. First, it doesn't matter what you think you mean, "allopathy" IS a derogatory term. Now you know. So don't use it unless you mean to be insulting. (Next you'll be tellling me you think it's OK to call a coloured person "n*gg*r", because it's "not meant as a derogatory term". Can it.)

Second, there's no point in coming here if you don't intend to defend your stance. Just repeating that you "believe", irrespective of any objective evidence, and indeed you're not terribly interested in examining the objective evidence, really doesn't cut it.

Third, just to join you in laziness for a minute, I don't have either the time or the inclination to sift through every one of your remarkably incoherent posts trying to figure out what is the "question" you keep saying hasn't been answered. If you want an answer, please repeat the question. Preferably in an unambiguous, clearly-worded manner.

Rolfe.
 
quote:
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Yet your entire career is on your perspective on how homeopathy worked on a chronic condition that has not even been properly diagnosed.
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good grief suezoled, did youread a word of what I wrote? The belief is certainly not based only on the one chronic condition.

Rolfe - being an honest, good, decent human being who is dedicated to helping to end human and animal suffering using homeopathy as well as other modalities - I find I am quite easily able to live with myself.

Huh - still no one gonna bother to answer my questions? Sheesh - glad I bothered to answered yours

Okay. You still based your career on personal experience. You base your career on personal experience and faulty thinking/reasoning and sources. You might think you're a decent, caring human being, after all, many people are, but you have chosen the "killing by kindess" route. Literally. Is that how you can justify taking a person's hope and hard earned money? Because yuo're a nice person? Some folks are cruel to be kind. Some are kind and inadvertantly cruel. You are the latter.
 
This is exactly what upsets and alarms me about homoeopaths. Most of them seem unable to manage even the most elementary rational thought that most of us take for granted. The sort of thinking that heats our homes, cooks our food, stops skyscrapers from falling down, keeps cars and trains and planes running, and even allowed us to land instruments on Mars and receive data back. That is the ability to differentiate between sheer coincidence and cause-and-effect.

The more I learn about homeopaths and homoeopathy (and I'm learning more than I care to), the more I'm convinced that the main role of their training courses is to remove critical thinking processes and to substitute instead a rationalisation that whatever happens is due to the remedies. Since most ailments get better, even if only temporarily, this allows a great rush of delusional self-congratulation in a fair proportion of cases. Even where not much headway is being made, there is often a rationalisation of events to portray the case as moving in the right direction. I think this self-congratulation is addictive.

Barb hasn't a clue about biochemistry, or physiology, or pharmacology, or therapeutics, or diagnostics, or immunology or any of the other disciplines essential to have any grasp of what is going on in a sick person or animal. She's happily allowed herself to be suckered into this delusional rote-learning where tediously-listed symptoms are tediously matched against tedious and irrelevant lists of things a small bunch of self-obsessed narcissists reported when they took some kind of shaken-up water. If asked, there will be some delusional clap-trap about mystical energies that science knows nothing about. Then some content-free potion with a magical connection to the magically-divined remedy is dispensed, and she sits back and feels all warm and fuzzy about how she's "helping" - pretty much whatever happens.

She has the arrogance to assume that she knows better than all the great minds of medicine from Harvey to the present day (and no, Hahnemann wasn't a great mind, he was a backward-looking buffoon). All these intelligent people working away in science and medicine, finding out by painstaking and repeated experiment how the body really works, are wrong. It's been revealed to the homoeopaths, and it's all about mystical energies that science has simply missed all of these years, because it can't measure them or detect them in any way. She feels very superior, because she knows that the great minds are wrong and she and her little clique of homoeopath amateurs have all the answers.

Funny how they can't actually show a self-evident, repeatable effect against any known disease or illness, isn't it?

It's tragic, because she's never going to give up this lucrative venture which is giving her these warm fuzzy feelings, not to mention lots of money. She's never going to sit down and look at the objective evidence with even the amount of intelligence an open-minded ten-year-old could manage. And she has her support crew of equally deluded souls to turn to should her faith ever show the slightest sign of wavering.

But it's also fraud on a grand scale. And people's heath and even their lives are being played with, all because of some people's need to play doctors, without having either the brains or the application to become a doctor for real.

It makes me sick.

Rolfe.

Oh, what was Barb's question, again?
 
Rolfe said:
this delusional rote-learning where tediously-listed symptoms are tediously matched against tedious and irrelevant lists of things a small bunch of self-obsessed narcissists reported when they took some kind of shaken-up water.

There we have it folks. Homeopathy 101. Next year we will study how to file our tax returns and avoid phone calls from the FDA.
 

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