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Epstein suicide conspiracy theories

So many things had to go just right for Epstein to successfully kill himself that a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted.
 
kellyb said:
There's this:

..........

So, broken neck bones are exceedingly rare even when there's a drop from something like a chair.
That sort of injury from just kneeling and letting the pressure just reduce blood flow to the head looks to be...completely implausible.
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Okaaaay......there are only so many ways you can repeat the experiment though. Different people with different body types in different environments.

The Great Zaganza said:
So many things had to go just right for Epstein to successfully kill himself that a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted.
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So many more things had to go right for evolution to succeed in creating us.
 
Venom said:
Okaaaay......there are only so many ways you can repeat the experiment though. Different people with different body types in different environments.



So many more things had to go right for evolution to succeed in creating us.
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True, but it seems really up in the air to me, what "really" happened. I'm assuming the medical examiner was taking it on faith that Epstein really had no cell mate, was alone, so he HAD to have killed himself somehow, right?
Like, if I were the ME, it would take something just beyond implausible to NOT rule it was a suicide here...like, death from a bullet wound with no gun in the cell, or something like that.

If there was even a .00001% chance he really did it to himself, then you'd have to call it suicide, or you're accusing the cops of being in on something more than incompetence. Which I would be loathe to do, personally.
 
kellyb said:
So, broken neck bones are exceedingly rare even when there's a drop from something like a chair.
That sort of injury from just kneeling and letting the pressure just reduce blood flow to the head looks to be...completely implausible.
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Exactly. However I've read different media reports which are inconsistent regarding whether it was a bone or multiple bones broken in his neck. Shoddy reporting? The actual autopsy report would clear that up.
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
So many things had to go just right for Epstein to successfully kill himself that a healthy dose of skepticism is warranted.
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Him killing himself doesn't sound outlandish to me, in and of itself.

It's just the broken neck bones which force me to engage in "suspension of disbelief" in order to to accept that he did it to himself.

It's hard to say which is more unlikely: him having been murdered and the prison guards basically covering it up, or broken neck bones from a "partial" hanging.

They're both unlikely. But that the guards would have faked the paperwork surrounding his death that night is ALSO unlikely, but really happened, (but supposedly just to cover up the fact that they fell asleep) so we're already deep in some sort of Kookooville no matter which way we go from here. LOL
 
GlennB said:
Exactly. However I've read different media reports which are inconsistent regarding whether it was a bone or multiple bones broken in his neck. Shoddy reporting? The actual autopsy report would clear that up.
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The only original reporting I've seen on that topic was a WaPo article, which says "bones" plural. All the other reports just link back to, or otherwise reference, that one.

eta: it could have been inaccurate reporting, though, in theory.
 
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kellyb said:
They're both unlikely. But that the guards would have faked the paperwork surrounding his death that night is ALSO unlikely, but really happened, (but supposedly just to cover up the fact that they fell asleep) so we're already deep in some sort of Kookooville no matter which way we go from here. LOL
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Wouldn't be the first or only time this has happened. Guards overall seem pretty mediocre throughout the country.

https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...el-castro-reveals-about-ohios-prisons/280472/

Ohio officials say two prison guards falsified logs documenting their observation of Cleveland kidnapper Ariel Castro in the hours before he killed himself. A report from the Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Correction says video indicates no checks were done on Castro at least eight times the afternoon and evening before he died.
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High profile or random bum off the street; you're just another head of livestock for the pen.
 
kellyb said:
Talking to an MD friend about it last night, mostly. She says either the report that multiple bones were broken was wrong, or he must have been murdered. :con2:
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If the second option is correct, can your MD friend outline a scenario in which Epstein was murdered by- presumably- strangulation, which broke these several bones but apparently left no other marks, at least none that we have heard about?
For the record, I'm on the fence about this one. It would not be implausible for him to have been killed, but there surely must be better ways to have accomplished this than a somewhat cack-handed attempt at a faked suicide.
 
kellyb said:
So, broken neck bones are exceedingly rare even when there's a drop from something like a chair.
That sort of injury from just kneeling and letting the pressure just reduce blood flow to the head looks to be...completely implausible.
Click to expand...

Epstein was 66 years old at the time of his death, making him a prime broken bone candidate. You've got to take these things into account before rattling off numbers.
 
Baylor said:
Epstein was 66 years old at the time of his death, making him a prime broken bone candidate. You've got to take these things into account before rattling off numbers.
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In hangings the neck vertebrae get broken when a considerable drop is halted by the force of the rope on the back of the neck. The jolt, in other words, leaving the victim dangling. No such thing happened in this case, as he was found on his knees and any drop would have been arrested by his legs. No abrupt, very forceful jolt is even available in that cell with the equipment at hand.

And, if he died of asphyxia, the force would have been applied to the front of his neck and any pressure round the back would easily be absorbed by the muscles. Have a feel around the back of your own neck. I just pressed my own vertebrae plenty hard enough to stop my breathing if the same force had been applied at the front. Not a problem in the slightest, and I'm 69 and skinny.

Meanwhile, the hyoid bone breaks easily because it's very flimsy and unprotected.
 
A couple of things to consider.

Epstein would have known about and even practiced auto-erotic asphyxiation so he's likely tied a few sheets and ropes around his neck before a few times.

Second, the Epstein rumor-mill has long alleged that a number of the young women abused on his island were murdered, and while this has not been confirmed it is certainly a realistic option, and certainly some of these women might have been killed by accidental strangulation.

This means Epstein would have had functional knowledge of the art of strangulation and hanging.

*Note* The Feds kept El Chapo alive through his trial and he's now at a Super Max.

*Note* Whitey Bulger lived through his trial but was taken out after the Feds moved him to a prison in West Virginia.

*Note* Point being that "They" usually get you after the trial so they know what you gave the Feds and what is still in your head.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
If the second option is correct, can your MD friend outline a scenario in which Epstein was murdered by- presumably- strangulation, which broke these several bones but apparently left no other marks, at least none that we have heard about?
For the record, I'm on the fence about this one. It would not be implausible for him to have been killed, but there surely must be better ways to have accomplished this than a somewhat cack-handed attempt at a faked suicide.
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Nothing about marks has been released either way, other than that after the first suicide attempt/attempted murder there were marks.
This doesn't strike me as a "Because no marks have been mentioned, it implies there were none" sort of thing, personally.

I really have no idea if there would have been a better way to kill him or not. I don't know when his luck ran out, or why, or when all the various people who would have wanted him dead might have come to the conclusion his luck had run out.
 
Axxman300 said:
A couple of things to consider.

Epstein would have known about and even practiced auto-erotic asphyxiation so he's likely tied a few sheets and ropes around his neck before a few times.

Second, the Epstein rumor-mill has long alleged that a number of the young women abused on his island were murdered, and while this has not been confirmed it is certainly a realistic option, and certainly some of these women might have been killed by accidental strangulation.

This means Epstein would have had functional knowledge of the art of strangulation and hanging.
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Right...the idea that he would have been able to know how to do a "partial hanging" suicide in the cell (and would have wanted to do it) doesn't seem outlandish at all to me.

It's only the "multiple broken neck bones" thing that doesn't make any sense with a partial hanging here.
 
GlennB said:
In hangings the neck vertebrae get broken when a considerable drop is halted by the force of the rope on the back of the neck. The jolt, in other words, leaving the victim dangling. No such thing happened in this case, as he was found on his knees and any drop would have been arrested by his legs. No abrupt, very forceful jolt is even available in that cell with the equipment at hand.

And, if he died of asphyxia, the force would have been applied to the front of his neck and any pressure round the back would easily be absorbed by the muscles. Have a feel around the back of your own neck. I just pressed my own vertebrae plenty hard enough to stop my breathing if the same force had been applied at the front. Not a problem in the slightest, and I'm 69 and skinny.

Meanwhile, the hyoid bone breaks easily because it's very flimsy and unprotected.
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Your little experiment is totally worthless.
 
GlennB said:
Then ignore that small part and address the rest of it?
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Sure. You are not qualified or informed enough to make any claims as to what could or could not have happened in Epstein's cell. Nor do you have any knowledge of the health or physical shape of Epstein at the time of his death.
 
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