Elizabeth Warren - 1/32nd Cherokee? How?

[davefoc]

... As others have noted she honestly believed that the claim was true. There is a legal term for that, it's called "good faith". End of story. I would have done the exact same thing for the reasons Travis has made clear and she made clear in her ad. She was indoctrinated to believe it. Had she been challenged on it and she doubled down and stuck to her claim you would have a point.

This was done in good faith. There was no farce. It was not shameful. To claim that Warren acted in bad faith by relying on her experience growing up, IMO, is not in good faith.

This is exactly my view of the situation so I just thought I'd quote it instead of making up something original to say.

ETA: edited to remove comment from RandFan quote that he apparently thought was inappropriate "snark". And for the record wasn't the part of the quote that I meant to agree with anyway.

 

[mikedenk]

I thought she was under attack because the Rethuglicans hate women? Nah, not getting enough traction - time to switch to the trusty ol' race card. I'm just surprised its taken so long to get to that point.

Even if we assume that Warren acted in good faith - I don't since I think she is a deeply dishonest person - she should take steps to validate her heritage if she is going to claim it in situations where it clearly benefits her professionally.

 

[RandFan]

I thought she was under attack because the Rethuglicans hate women? Nah, not getting enough traction - time to switch to the trusty ol' race card. I'm just surprised its taken so long to get to that point.

Even if we assume that Warren acted in good faith - I don't since I think she is a deeply dishonest person - she should take steps to validate her heritage if she is going to claim it in situations where it clearly benefits her professionally.

How does it "clearly" benefit her? This assertion keeps getting made but not supported. And BTW: It's those on the right who are playing the race card and not the left. Oh, and please to demonstrate that she is "deeply dishonest", yes, I realize that it's just your opinion but that opinion ought to have some basis in reality, especially given that this is a skeptics forum, right?

 

[applecorped]

BEING MADE OF FAIL is how.

Yes, she is made of fail. Glad you agree.

 

[varwoche]

As others have noted she honestly believed that the claim was true. There is a legal term for that, it's called "good faith"...

Yes, I grant that she thought she was fractionally Cherokee. And had she claimed to be part Cherokee, I would have no issue at all. But that's not what she did. She misrepresented herself. Also known as lying.

To be clear -- I would vote for her without hesitation if I lived in MA.

 

[johnny karate]

I thought she was under attack because the Rethuglicans hate women? Nah, not getting enough traction - time to switch to the trusty ol' race card. I'm just surprised its taken so long to get to that point.

Nope, nothing racist going on in that video. Nothing at all.

Professor Warren claimed she was a Native American, a person of color — and as you can see, she is not.

Nope, nothing racist about that remark. Nothing at all.


Where do Democrats get these crazy ideas?

 

[RandFan]

She misrepresented herself. Also known as lying.

Perhaps I'm missing something. When did she knowingly misrepresent herself?

 

[varwoche]

Perhaps I'm missing something. When did she knowingly misrepresent herself?

She claimed to be Native American, period.

Similar to someone with $2 in their pocket claiming to have a bankroll.

 

[Tricky]

Again, I harp on, why is this even important? She may have inaccurately filled out a demographic question. Did she get a scholarship because of it? Reduced tuition? No. But what the seventh circle of hell does this have to do with her qualification as a Senator? Even if she lied intentionally, that's hardly a disqualification for public office, or there wouldn't be any politicians. This is a smear attack that is orchestrated by the Brown campaign. Maybe some of his staff took it a little more seriously than Brown wanted them to, but when you are a Preacher of Racial Ridicule, you have to expect that your parishoners may follow your lead more enthusiastically than you would prefer. It's like the Birther movement, which the GOP officially disavows, but will not try to snuff out. They like racists. They pander to racists. They can't suddenly back off and say, "Oh no, I never meant it like that."

Brown may yet win, but he's tainted by this dishonest and hateful campaign, and deservedly so.

 

[RandFan]

She claimed to be Native American, period.

If you claim something that you honestly believe is true then it isn't a lie, I asked "knowingly".

Similar to someone with $2 in their pocket claiming to have a bankroll.

Wouldn't such a person likely know that they didn't have a bankroll?

 

[Tricky]

She claimed to be Native American, period.

So what? Thats what her parents told her. Suppose your parents never told you that you were adopted and you unknowingly claimed their heritage? (It's happened many times.) Would that reflect on your honesty?

 

[varwoche]

Again, I harp on, why is this even important?

Speaking only for myself naturally, I don't think it is. But just because you and I think it's unimportant doesn't mean that she didn't misrepresent herself.

She may have inaccurately filled out a demographic question.
<snip lots of stuff I agree with>

If true, I'd expect her to have said so, rather than the things she did say. (I could easily have missed something in the reporting though.)

 

[RandFan]

If true, I'd expect her to have said so, rather than the things she did say. (I could easily have missed something in the reporting though.)

She claims that she had no reason not to believe it was true. Do you have a reason to think she is lying?

 

[varwoche]

So what? Thats what her parents told her.

I thought she was aware she was fractionally Native American. If I'm wrong, that would completely change what I think.

Suppose your parents never told you that you were adopted and you unknowingly claimed their heritage? (It's happened many times.) Would that reflect on your honesty?

Not at all.

 

[RandFan]

I thought she was aware she was fractionally Native American.

Yes, obviously she believed it was only fractional. That's why her parents had to elope. Are you saying that only pure blood native Americans can answer in the affirmative questions about persons of color?

 

[varwoche]

Yes, obviously she believed it was only fractional. That's why her parents had to elope. Are you saying that only pure blood native Americans can answer in the affirmative questions about persons of color?

Even though I'm unable to parse, I'm pretty sure I'm not saying that.

 

[RandFan]

Even though I'm unable to parse, I'm pretty sure I'm not saying that.

I don't understand your point about "fractional" and how that because she is not pure blood that somehow makes her dishonest. I'm not sure what's difficult about what I said but it would seem to follow from your logic that only pure blooded native Americans can claim native American heritage, yes? No? If not then what is your point?

And it's late, I'm tired, I'm perhaps missing something.

 

[davefoc]

I don't understand your point about "fractional" and how that because she is not pure blood that somehow makes her dishonest. I'm not sure what's difficult about what I said but it would seem to follow from your logic that only pure blooded native Americans can claim native American heritage, yes? No? If not then what is your point?

And it's late, I'm tired, I'm perhaps missing something.

I too am a little confused on Varwoche's ideas about all this.

Everybody agrees that Elizabeth Warren may have misrepresented her Indian heritage. There seems to be no evidence that she did it intentionally. There seems to be no evidence that she had any personal gain from the misrepresentation. There seems to be good evidence that she had a good faith basis for believing that she was indeed part or fractionally Cherokee. There is no good evidence available that she is actually part/fractionally Cherokee but there is also no good evidence that she isn't part/fractionally Cherokee.

Except for a few notable exceptions everybody participating in this thread seems to agree with all of the above. It seems that Varwoche himself may be one that agrees with all of the above, so I am not clear exactly what Varwoche does disagree with.

 

[varwoche]

I don't understand your point about "fractional" and how that because she is not pure blood that somehow makes her dishonest. I'm not sure what's difficult about what I said but it would seem to follow from your logic that only pure blooded native Americans can claim native American heritage, yes? No? If not then what is your point?

And it's late, I'm tired, I'm perhaps missing something.

I use fractional to mean small* fraction. Since you might ask, I'd be hard-pressed to give a number. It's not that simple; there are factors other than DNA.

If my understanding is wrong, I'd like to know. However, as a matter of proper skepticism in the political sphere, I always discount (not disregard entirely -- discount) the self-serving words of a politician who is running for office. So I'll need more than her word.

* Not uncommon usage

 

[RandFan]

I use fractional to mean small fraction. Since you might ask, I'd be hard-pressed to give a number. It's not that simple; there are factors other than DNA.

If my understanding is wrong, I'd like to know. However, as a matter of proper skepticism in the political sphere, I always discount (not disregard entirely -- discount) the self-serving words of a politician who is running for office. So I'll need more than her word.

A.) Did she know it was only a "small" fraction? B.) When did she know it?

Like I said, had someone challenged her and she doubled down on something that was wrong then I would happily agree with you. But as Dafefoc notes above, she didn't claim something to get a benefit and she honestly believed that she was "fractional", sufficient that her parents had to elope.

So, I'm with Dave, I still don't get your point. I'm sorry.