Electronic Cigarettes?

[NateHevens]

Here's an interesting subject to discuss.

I smoked heavily for about 6 months when I was 16, but ultimately quit cold turkey because I found out my mom was allergic to second-hand (oddly enough, although I have a very addictive personality, and I was definitely addicted, quitting cold turkey was pretty easy... in fact, the hardest part was noticing a rise in my stress levels again). I found out about these e-cigs recently, and I'm interested...

However, I'm not interested for the nicotine (although if I start them I might get one or two things of juice with nicotine... maybe). It is true that I am an extremely stressed person. It really takes nothing to get me stressed out, and I used to be stressed out practically 24/7. Those 6 months smoking were the most relaxed 6 months I ever remember having, but ultimately the risks to myself and to my mom weren't worth-it. Now I try other, less dangerous methods, and I actually have really good control over my stress nowadays.

I'm interested in these e-cigarettes, or personal vaporizers, for the flavors, of which there are tons. I haven't gotten one yet as I prefer to do research and follow the continued reviews and testing on them, but I am interested.

What do y'all think about them, though? There isn't a lot of literature and the FDA's reports are highly criticized for being based on a lot of presuppositions. If you read the FDA literature it's quite obvious that they were already biased against the personal vaporizers when they conducted their reviews. As such, there's questions as to how biased the tests and reviews were, and that's doubled by the fact that of all the organizations doing reviews on these, the FDA's were the only ones that are definitely negative, whereas the rest are mostly neutral with one or two being positive.

Here's the references section of the Wikipedia article on electronic cigarettes which gives most of the relevant literature:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cigarette#References
There's a lot in the Wiki references page not linked below, so make sure you check out Wiki's references as well.

Here are a bunch of other links to check out:
-AAPHP White Paper: The E-Cigarette in the Context of Overall Tobacco Control
-E-cigarettes: harmless inhaled or exhaled
-Debunking the claim that abstinence is usually healthier for smokers than switching to a low-risk alternative, and other observations about anti-tobacco-harm-reduction arguments
-Ruyan® E-cigarette Bench-top tests Handout
-Long-term effects of inhaled nicotine.
-Comparison of Carcinogen Levels Shows that Electronic Cigarettes are Much Safer Than Conventional Ones
-SE vs. FDA Complete Judge Ruling (this will open a download dialog box to download and open a PDF)

On Propylene Glycol:
-Medicine: Air Germicide
-TESTS FOR THE CHRONIC TOXICITY OF PROPYLEXE GLYCOL AND TRIETHYLENE GLYCOL ON MONKEYS AND RATS BY VAPOR INHALATION AND ORAL ADMINISTRATION
-Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol Toxicity
What is Propylene Glycol?
-NASA: Propylene Glycol

I just want to point out that a lot of the e-juices are not made with Propylene Glycol. Many are made with Vegetable Glycerin, and still more are made with Polyethylene Glycol 400.

 

[luchog]

If you read the FDA literature it's quite obvious that they were already biased against the personal vaporizers when they conducted their reviews.

What support do you have for believing this to be bias, and not a conclusion based on evidence?

 

[Giggywig]

Yesterday as I was driving home I heard an ad on the radio for these things. In part it said:

We can't say they are healthy BUT there is no tar or nicotine...

That did not instill the greatest sense of trust in me. The first time I ever saw one of them it was at a mall, they were selling them at a kiosk. As I walked past a guy offered them to me. I'd never heard of such a thing and my mind struggled to comprehend the concept of "electronic cigarettes" so I just stared in disbelief at him as I walked past. He probably thought I was rude.

 

[Cainkane1]

I'd go ahead and buy one of these fake cigs. Find out what you think.

 

[bluesjnr]

You seem to have done your research (for what it is worth). You have past experience with the "real thing". Whether or not you will get any benefit from these e-cigs is entirely subjective.

Personally, I think only the extremely stupid fork out for rubbish like this but YMMV. To address your stress observation. I am not aware that there is any research that links stress to smoking in any way. If there was a link then it would be the case that lifelong non-smokers would suffer from higher levels of stress than smokers surely?

I'm an ex smoker who quit, cold turkey, after many attempts, an ultimately 60 per day, 20 year habit on Nov 1st 2007 and I have never done anything else that has so dramatically improved my health and sense of well being

Make up your own mind.

 

[NateHevens]

What support do you have for believing this to be bias, and not a conclusion based on evidence?

It's probably an admitted bias on my part, but it looked like from what I read of their reports (I read all of them) they went into this with a "oh it's just more cigarettes" attitude. Again, it's probably a bias on my part that sees it, so it may not be there, but it's my evaluation of the FDA's reports.

Plus, it is weird that of all the reports done, it was just the FDA's reports that were negative. Many were either inconclusive or neutral (but leaning towards a positive stance), and a few of the reports were overwhelmingly positive. I just wonder why the FDA is the only agency getting negative reviews about them...

Yesterday as I was driving home I heard an ad on the radio for these things. In part it said:

That did not instill the greatest sense of trust in me. The first time I ever saw one of them it was at a mall, they were selling them at a kiosk. As I walked past a guy offered them to me. I'd never heard of such a thing and my mind struggled to comprehend the concept of "electronic cigarettes" so I just stared in disbelief at him as I walked past. He probably thought I was rude.

Well, they were just being honest. Not enough studies have been done to say for sure, yet. As such, I'd actually feel better about a commercial that said "We can't say they are healthy BUT there is no tar or nicotine" instead of "these are definitely healthier than a regular cigarette". The first is honest, the second, while it may not definitely be a lie, due to the lack of literature, it's not exactly honest.

As far as the kiosk guy, from what I've heard it's best you stay far away from them. Apparently the products they sell are over-priced and bad quality.

I'd go ahead and buy one of these fake cigs. Find out what you think.

I may. If I do I'll keep you guys updated...

You seem to have done your research (for what it is worth). You have past experience with the "real thing". Whether or not you will get any benefit from these e-cigs is entirely subjective.

Oh I agree. Entirely subjective.

Personally, I think only the extremely stupid fork out for rubbish like this but YMMV.

Your painting a lot of people with a big brush. Either there are a lot of extremely stupid people out there (more then I'd be willing to believe, and I'm aware of the sheer amounts of stupid in this world), or that evaluation isn't entirely correct. I have tons of friends using personal vaporizers now, some in order to help them quit the real thing, others for the flavor, and a couple starting a nicotine habit (despite warnings not to from myself and others) with them.

Oh... and a couple online friends who live in Amsterdam have found a way to synthesize THC into a juice and vape what they call "pot juice" with the personal vaporizers instead. One of them taught me how to do it and he said he'd be willing to send me some pot to give it a try, but I'm a bit scared seeing as I live in the States and all, so I probably won't... though if pot's finally legalized, I most likely will...

To address your stress observation. I am not aware that there is any research that links stress to smoking in any way. If there was a link then it would be the case that lifelong non-smokers would suffer from higher levels of stress than smokers surely?

I have no idea. I do know that I first started smoking because I was told by some friends that nicotine will reduce my stress, and that's what I discovered. I ended up smoking heavily because the feeling of less stress didn't last that long past the finishing of one cigarette. Hence a growing addiction.

I'm an ex smoker who quit, cold turkey, after many attempts, an ultimately 60 per day, 20 year habit on Nov 1st 2007 and I have never done anything else that has so dramatically improved my health and sense of well being

First off, major congratulations. I never got to 60 a day. Seeing that perhaps heavily was a bit of an exaggeration, but then I saw 1.5 to 2 packs a day as heavy, and at the worst of it that's what I was doing. Maybe that's not that heavy, though...

Second, in many ways I did feel better after quitting. The cravings did take a while to go away, but not that long, and when they did, it was like a weight off of my shoulders (that's why I probably won't get any of the nicotine juices for it if I do start using them).

Stress is something I've always battled and there are healthier ways to deal with it.

Make up your own mind.

I'm working on it.

 

[Viper Daimao]

I'm not a smoker but many in my family are. From what little I've heard about these thing, I'm not sure how it's not safer than cigarettes. It's certainly more dangerous/worse than not smoking, but most people who smoke never stop smoking for more than a few months at a time. even replacing a few cigs with these inhalers would seem to help. Don't see how these are much different than the gum and patches.

 

[Loss Leader]

My personal rule of thumb is: don't volunteer to breathe things you don't have to.

It's just the way I am.

 

[Mirrorglass]

To address your stress observation. I am not aware that there is any research that links stress to smoking in any way. If there was a link then it would be the case that lifelong non-smokers would suffer from higher levels of stress than smokers surely?

I don't know if there are any studies on the long term effects, but the short term relaxing properties of smoking are well documented. Some sources believe it's a big part of the process of addiction.

 

[roger]

Lung cancer is pretty stressful, from what I hear.

 

[quarky]

My wife ordered one by mail a few days ago. She's desperate to quit, so i didn't object. I should be able to report back something in a day or two.

My concern is that it won't really be an adequate facsimile. Also, it wasn't cheap.

I wonder if they'll be allowed in smoke free places?

 

[bluesjnr]

I don't know if there are any studies on the long term effects, but the short term relaxing properties of smoking are well documented. Some sources believe it's a big part of the process of addiction.

OK. Can you quote these well documented properties and the scientific methodology applied in arriving at these conclusions? Not anecdotes but peer reviewed research please.

With regard to your 2nd sentence. Which sources believe this? Can you cite them and/or the clinical studies that confirm or even introduce the notion of a "process of addiction" in relation to nicotine and its effects on stress.

With respect, your assertion is not enough.

 

[Viper Daimao]

My wife ordered one by mail a few days ago. She's desperate to quit, so i didn't object. I should be able to report back something in a day or two.

My concern is that it won't really be an adequate facsimile. Also, it wasn't cheap.

I wonder if they'll be allowed in smoke free places?

from what I've seen and read, it doesn't offer the same level of nicotine as cigs (think I saw .1 vs .01 cited), but it doesn't offer a more "genuine" experience.

I thought it didn't produce any smoke, so theoretically it should be fine in smoke free places.

 

[Mirrorglass]

OK. Can you quote these well documented properties and the scientific methodology applied in arriving at these conclusions? Not anecdotes but peer reviewed research please.

With regard to your 2nd sentence. Which sources believe this? Can you cite them and/or the clinical studies that confirm or even introduce the notion of a "process of addiction" in relation to nicotine and its effects on stress.

With respect, your assertion is not enough.

Fair 'nuff.


Tobacco smoking is associated with an experience of relaxation:

[Tobacco smoking among young patients with bronchial asthma and determination of smoking-related behavior in the patient's closest environment]

The multi-variant analysis showed that hanging around smoking friends, the pleasure of smoking and experienced relaxation were the most frequent motivation for taking up smoking.

Schizophrenia and the Motivation for Smoking

Subjects reported they smoked primarily for sedative effects and control of negative symptoms of schizophrenia.

The effects of nicotine, denicotinized tobacco, and nicotine-containing tobacco on cigarette craving, withdrawal, and self-administration in male and female smokers.

NT [Nicotine-containing tobacco] and DT [Denicotinized tobacco] were each associated with increased satisfaction and relaxation as well as decreased craving relative to the inhalers and NT increased ratings of stimulation relative to each of the other products.

Admittedly, none of these suggest that starting smoking would have any relaxing properties, but once you have started, relaxation associated with smoking is common.

I probably should have worded my point better before, too; what is well-documented is the experience of relaxation associated with smoking, not any tangible effect of reducing stress.

First-inhalation relaxation experience as a predictor of dependence:

Recollections and repercussions of the first inhaled cigarette

Relaxation in response to the first inhalation was the strongest predictor of symptoms of nicotine dependence.

Susceptibility to Nicotine Dependence: The Development and Assessment of Nicotine Dependence in Youth 2 Study

Tobacco dependence was predicted by feeling relaxed, familiarity with Joe Camel, novelty seeking, and depressed mood.

 

[bluesjnr]

Fair 'nuff.

You responded with

Tobacco smoking is associated with an experience of relaxation:

[Tobacco smoking among young patients with bronchial asthma and determination of smoking-related behaviour in the patient's closest environment]

The conclusion (from your article) was

To sum up, it should be stated that despite of the fact that smoking is a documented risk factor, young patients with bronchial asthma are still subjected to this habit.

As can be seen you quoted therein some research conducted amongst patients with bronchial asthma and within that research group a determination of smoking related behaviour ... blah ..blah...blah, which has nothing to do with my request for peer reviewed evidence that smoking reduces or helps cope with stress.

You then went with

Schizophrenia and the Motivation for Smoking

We were not talking about mentally ill patients.

Next was an extremely small test

The effects of nicotine, denicotinized tobacco, and nicotine-containing tobacco on cigarette craving, withdrawal, and self-administration in male and female smokers.

I'm not sure a group of only 22 participants would be enough to convince me. However, the result is;

Findings suggest that DT is effective in acutely reducing many smoking abstinence symptoms, especially in women, but a combination of nicotine and non-nicotine tobacco ingredients may be necessary to suppress smoking behavior.

I cannot see a positive with regard to smoking and the reduction of stress there.

You then went on to say;

Admittedly, none of these suggest that starting smoking would have any relaxing properties, but once you have started, relaxation associated with smoking is common.

Utter nonsense and unsupported, as has been seen. You are saying that to have a positive benefit stress wise, one must first start smoking.

I probably should have worded my point better before, too; what is well-documented is the experience of relaxation associated with smoking, not any tangible effect of reducing stress.

Sounds anecdotal to me. If it is not tangible then it cannot be measured and must, therefore, be imagined and ultimately.........well......... you know.

We then go to;

First-inhalation relaxation experience as a predictor of dependence:

Recollections and repercussions of the first inhaled cigarette

Which says that "in conclusion"

Conclusions: The data suggest that increased sensitivity to nicotine as manifested by relaxation, dizziness, or nausea in response to the first exposure to nicotine represents a risk factor for the development of nicotine dependence.

You are quoting a study that looked at FIRST EXPOSURE and that is not what we were talking about at all.

Susceptibility to Nicotine Dependence: The Development and Assessment of Nicotine Dependence in Youth 2 Study

In some way you answer the addiction question. I asked about the (perceived) link between smoking and reduced stress.

 

[NateHevens]

Lung cancer is pretty stressful, from what I hear.

You know, it's funny, but...

I know this kid who lives in California (knew him through high school; he moved to CA after high school to go to college there). He's not a personally depressed person, but he's also not the most optimistic person in the world. Think of a cross between George Carlin and Bill Hicks minus the conspiracy theory stuff, and you'd get his personality.

Recently, I finally asked him why he smoked (he had been smoking throughout high school and he still does), and this is exactly what he said to me:

"One day, I was watching CNN, and I saw this story about a girl who was gang-raped for hours. Nobody bothered to do anything, not even call the cops, although some people did think it would be fun to watch it, apparently.

After seeing that, I looked at my pack of cigarettes... I wasn't even craving one at the time, you know... but I took one out, lit it up, and said 'lung cancer? F*** it. Gotta be better then this s***.' And I smoked it."

from what I've seen and read, it doesn't offer the same level of nicotine as cigs (think I saw .1 vs .01 cited), but it doesn't offer a more "genuine" experience.

Actually, you can get different levels of nicotine in the juice, usually between 0 mg (no nicotine) to 24 mg.

Also, you can get unflavored juices with between 48 mg and 60 mg of nicotine, however those are expressly for making your own juices and not to be vaped by themselves (due to the fact that that much nicotine can poison you).

I thought it didn't produce any smoke, so theoretically it should be fine in smoke free places.

They don't produce smoke, but instead they produce "vapor". Essentially, instead of smoke, it's steam, and not only is it basically harmless, but depending on what flavor your vaping, it can smell really good (as opposed to cigarettes which just smell nasty).

Personally, if I do get one, it'll be one with low vapor output and high flavor and throat-kick.

Actually guys... the forum I get a lot (though not all) of my info about e-cigs from is the E-Cigarette Forum.

They have this 6-part primer on the personal vaporizers. It is long, but if anyone wants to read it, here are the links:
The Wonderful World of Vaping: An Illustrated Guide to E-cigs Part 1
The Wonderful World of Vaping: An Illustrated Guide to E-cigs Part 2
The Wonderful World of Vaping: An Illustrated Guide to E-cigs Part 3
The Wonderful World of Vaping: An Illustrated Guide to E-cigs Part 4
The Wonderful World of Vaping: An Illustrated Guide to E-cigs Part 5
The Wonderful World of Vaping: An Illustrated Guide to E-cigs Part 6

 

[bluesjnr]

You know, it's funny, but...

I know this kid who lives in California (knew him through high school; he moved to CA after high school to go to college there). He's not a personally depressed person, but he's also not the most optimistic person in the world. Think of a cross between George Carlin and Bill Hicks minus the conspiracy theory stuff, and you'd get his personality.

Recently, I finally asked him why he smoked (he had been smoking throughout high school and he still does), and this is exactly what he said to me:

"One day, I was watching CNN, and I saw this story about a girl who was gang-raped for hours. Nobody bothered to do anything, not even call the cops, although some people did think it would be fun to watch it, apparently.

After seeing that, I looked at my pack of cigarettes... I wasn't even craving one at the time, you know... but I took one out, lit it up, and said 'lung cancer? F*** it. Gotta be better then this s***.' And I smoked it."

Your friend is a liar, in this regard. Or you have not related the story correctly. No more no less.

I'll forgive you the "my pack of cigarettes" which would confirms your assertion that he/she already smoked and makes this story irrelevant to the thread.

Why would the rape of an unknown person, by persons unknown; witnessed (according to some fairy tale made up by the smoker 'cos there is no other evidence to suggest it is true) by people who were "[not] bothered to do anything, not even call the cops, although some people did think it would be fun to watch it, apparently."

Cause a non smoker or a smoker or a bus driver or a postman or anybody to think. "H'mm I think I'll have a ciggy now"

 

[Mirrorglass]

In some way you answer the addiction question. I asked about the (perceived) link between smoking and reduced stress.

I'd like to point out that I did not indeed claim such a link. I simply claimed smoking is often associated with the experience of relaxation. I know that the studies I cited didn't have this as their conclusion, but they did contain a reasonable number of people testifying that they experience relaxation in association to smoking. As relaxation is a fairly subjective sensation, I think testimonies from smokers are sufficient evidence such experiences are common. If you demand more evidence for relaxation, then my claims are indeed unfounded. But then it's simply a case of us meaning different things with the word "relaxation".

Sounds anecdotal to me. If it is not tangible then it cannot be measured and must, therefore, be imagined and ultimately.........well......... you know.

If you say so, but in my opinion people's experiences are real, even if they cannot be measured in a way other than asking them. Whether they're "imagined" is an interesting question.

I don't really believe we're disagreeing here; you just read a bit more to my claim than was actually there.

 

[NateHevens]

Your friend is a liar, in this regard. Or you have not related the story correctly. No more no less.

I'll forgive you the "my pack of cigarettes" which would confirms your assertion that he/she already smoked and makes this story irrelevant to the thread.

I already pointed out that he had been smoking prior to my asking him... for years, in fact.

(he had been smoking throughout high school and he still does)

Why would the rape of an unknown person, by persons unknown; witnessed (according to some fairy tale made up by the smoker 'cos there is no other evidence to suggest it is true) by people who were "[not] bothered to do anything, not even call the cops, although some people did think it would be fun to watch it, apparently."

Cause a non smoker or a smoker or a bus driver or a postman or anybody to think. "H'mm I think I'll have a ciggy now"

A fairy tale? Really? This?

Bay Area girl gang raped at school while witnesses watch but do nothing
October 26, 2009 | 5:41 pm
A 15-year-old girl who went to her homecoming dance was repeatedly gang raped and beaten at Richmond High School for at least two hours while more than a dozen witnesses saw the assault but failed to call police, authorities said today.

The attack occurred Saturday around 9:30 p.m. after the girl had left the dance and was waiting for a ride from her father. She saw a male student she knew, who took her to a dark alley behind one of the school buildings, Richmond police said.

Police said alcohol was consumed but were awaiting toxicology tests.

The male student and about six others began raping and beating the girl. As she struggled, more than a dozen witnesses passed by or watched what was going on. The ordeal lasted 2 to 2 1/2 hours, police said.

"The victim was beaten, sexually assaulted and robbed," said Lt. Mark Gagan. "What's equally disturbing is that other people saw what was going on and did nothing."

Police were finally called after a female student overhead people talking about the rape. She called 911 and told dispatchers what she had heard, according to Gagan.

The girl was hospitalized with non-life-threatening injuries, police said.

A former student, Manuel Ortega, 19, was arrested a few blocks away Saturday night and booked on charges of rape, robbery and kidnapping, Gagan said. Ortega was being held Monday on $800,000 bail.

Investigators were questioning two students Monday evening at the police station in Richmond, a city of 104,000 16 miles northeast of San Francisco.

-- Robert J. Lopez

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-5449972-504083.html
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=7111732
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/index.html
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local-beat/Second-Arrest-Made-in-Gang-Rape-Beating-Case-66401677.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/02/28/state/n090024S86.DTL

I saw that story too when it hit. Although it didn't make me want to smoke, I can understand why someone of his personality would think that way.

The story did piss me off as someone who absolutely detests rape enough that I think rapists should be raped, tortured, and killed, but there you go.

This is also not the subject of the thread.

Just a note... it's one thing to be skeptical, another thing entirely to just automatically think people are lying.

 

[bluesjnr]

I'm not convinced by your HUGE FONT - sorry. Whilst the story is horrific, you cannot (conclusively) link this to your friend and it proves nothing.

You are right when you say that it is;

one thing to be skeptical, another thing entirely to just automatically think people are lying.

But your anecdotal tosh reaps what it sows. I take any anecdote to be a stretch of the truth (lie), more so when people start to make the kinda claims your friend did to justify him smoking.