Rolfe
Adult human female
Exceedingly wise. So you don't have anything to explain or feel negative about. You will be driving a vehicle that somebody would have been driving anyway. Might as well be you.
Cont: Electric Vehicles II
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Exceedingly wise. So you don't have anything to explain or feel negative about. You will be driving a vehicle that somebody would have been driving anyway. Might as well be you.
Dabop
Master Poster
In a building that large- electrical constraints would be the least of your issues lol
I suspect you don't understand just how easy it is putting in commercial systems like I showed- these people do nothing else BUT put EV chargers in blocks of flats lol....
The trick is that you dont try and piecemeal it- theres no need for 'buying out parking stall owners, reshuffling parking rights' its all done as a single 'charging system' for the entire complex...
If you have assigned parking bays- no problem.... just run to each as needed (and allow cable sizing for eventual upgrades to all bays)
If you dont have assigned parking bays- thats not a problem either....
This is OLD stuff, thats been done for years lol
Jack by the hedge
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It's worth considering that residents switching to EVs does not mean more cars to park. Just some of them are now EVs. I would expect in your situation eventually a cluster of spaces will get charging points, wherever installation is easiest, and residents will swap parking spots to accommodate. I imagine a small difference in the rental fee (more with a charger, less without) would encourage folk to swap rather than resent having to move from their regular spot.
It does raise the point that parking and charging are two different issues and sometimes clash. I see a small number of charging points appearing in isolated car parks in national parks but I wonder how useful that is. If you're going to park and, like everyone else, go climb that peak over there you're not going to be back for 4 or 5 hours whether your car is charged or not. So nobody else is going to charge their car, and you can never depend on being able to do so.
A general discussion on EVs has been merged in from a thread in Conspiracy Theories.
Posted By: zooterkin
Wudang
BOFH
A mate of mine lives near Perth,WA and loves his BYD. The power goes out every so often and he can run his house comfortably off his car for a couple of hours until it comes back.
Here in the UK I'm on my 2nd EV. I traded my Ocavia 1.8 TSi in and got a 2014 Nissan Leaf with a practical range of 70 miles. My main driving at the time was urban stop/start driving and my Skoda was complaining and burning fuel (perfect motorway car for me though). This year I upgraded to a 2021 Kia eNiro and am very happy. I can easily do a round trip from Sheffield to my daughters uni in Liverpool, throw in some shopping trips etc and not have to recharge. I have a Type 1 smart charger I got the Leaf and an adaptor and I usually charge my car once a week to 80% (battery saver setting) and get 220+ miles. I used the Lidl super faster charger 2 minutes from me once just to be sure it worked - it does.
A big change from the Leaf is how much regenerative charging is now built in to the "normal" driving mode. A brother in law is a research scientist with Stellantis and says this is a massive area for them and seen as a major battle ground with the competition so will continue to improve.
eta: sorry, still writing while Zooterkin did the move
Here in the UK I'm on my 2nd EV. I traded my Ocavia 1.8 TSi in and got a 2014 Nissan Leaf with a practical range of 70 miles. My main driving at the time was urban stop/start driving and my Skoda was complaining and burning fuel (perfect motorway car for me though). This year I upgraded to a 2021 Kia eNiro and am very happy. I can easily do a round trip from Sheffield to my daughters uni in Liverpool, throw in some shopping trips etc and not have to recharge. I have a Type 1 smart charger I got the Leaf and an adaptor and I usually charge my car once a week to 80% (battery saver setting) and get 220+ miles. I used the Lidl super faster charger 2 minutes from me once just to be sure it worked - it does.
A big change from the Leaf is how much regenerative charging is now built in to the "normal" driving mode. A brother in law is a research scientist with Stellantis and says this is a massive area for them and seen as a major battle ground with the competition so will continue to improve.
eta: sorry, still writing while Zooterkin did the move
Yes, someone needs to decide how to mix parking and charging. One solution is for every space to have a charger, but that's obviously not possible in the short term.
When I first got my EV, councils were trying to encourage people to switch to EVs, and so installed a few charging points in car parks that were free to use. I would park near college, and my car was usually fully charged by the end of the day (they were not fast chargers) and I had only paid for the parking. As time went on, the chargers were temperamental, and often only a couple out of the six were working. Then they stopped being free, and I only used them if I really needed to - by this time we had a charger at home, and keeping the car topped up was not a problem. Similarly with supermarkets which installed chargers that were free to use, and then started charging - I used those to start with (though with a slow charger and a 30 minute visit to the shop, it was only filling up enough to cover that trip), but once they were not free there was no point.
There are still a few car parks that do free charging, usually slow chargers, but most cost extra, and you can still find ICE cars blocking the spaces.
Dabop
Master Poster
Thats one advantage of a lot of the newer EVs- LFP battery packs have taken over from the NCM cells used in earlier ones- and they dont have that '80% full ' nonsense needed- LFP can be left at 100% without issues (they are also a hell of a lot safer- NCM are the 'burny' cells so often seen on youtube, LFP is a different chemistry of lithium cell, and is far more stable and resistant to catching fire, and easier to put out to boot if it DOES manage it.... (LYP cells would be even better- they literally are almost impossible to set on fire, but their energy density isnt that good...) the majority of Chinese and Euro EVs are now LFP...
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
Where do you intend to set up the charging points? As I mentioned earlier, there is no free space in the complex, so for each charging station the condo wants to set up, someone must give up a parking stall. Our condo is governed on mutual trust and not authoritarianism, so negotiations will have to take place. I know there are a couple of stalls occupied by vehicles that haven't moved in years, but legally the condo can't remove them.
We will also need to figure out who pays for the installation: the unit owner or the condominium. That boils down to the question of whether or not the charging system is a common element, like the reception lounge and plumbing system. (I suspect it is.)
A piecemeal system will eventually lead to every stall having a charger. The potential maximum draw for 250 Level 3 chargers, 240 V at 30 amps each is 1.5 megawatts. Of course, that likely won't ever be seen. But either we size the building's electrical system to accommodate this draw, or we install a central charging management system avoid overwhelming the building's transformer and plunging the entire complex into darkness. Do you know if the chargers you were referring to have such a system? If so, this point is already addressed.
Dabop
Master Poster
This is why they have professionals do it, and not hobbits lol...
NO-ONE 'gives up a stall'- if you have assigned parking spots (which sounds like the case) then a common feed is installed that feeds multiple stalls at once (usually run along a wall or roof) with a charge point (which is literally just that little box on the wall) is installed at each bay as the owner/resident asks for it...
Usually the main power cable install is done as a 'building maintenance project' same as any other communal system (like the lifts, hallway lighting etc etc) and when a tenant requests a charge point be put in, its a very quick and simple job to simply tap into the main 'EV feed' system... screw the charger to the wall and program it...
And yes- these are NOT 'lots of individual' chargers, but a single complete multivehicle charging system- and as no EV actually NEEDS an overnight 7kw charge full time every night- most of these use a 'managed' charge system designed to accommodate both the number of vehicles plugged in, and also considering the buildings supply capabilities and even current usage....
Again, this isn't 'something new'- hell the Zappi home EV chargers (either 7kw single phase or 22kw for the 3 phase version) has had most of these features in the HOME chargers (including house load monitoring and 'intelligent' throttling if the household loads spike up, it is monitoring the current feeds to the house via inductive pickups, and if it is approaching the preprogrammed limits for that install, will automatically 'throttle back' on the EV charge current until that load peak has passed- and the Zappi was first released in the UK in 2018!!! AND it can utilise your rooftop solar arrays to charge the EV as well lol
Current detection is done with the CT clamps (inductive current measuring devices) in this case the Harvi is the Zappi's CT clamp (black one with grey lead)
A wifi system like the Harvi isn't usually used in large blocks of flats though- too much interference to be reliable, so special EV supply cables are used- that have both the power and a data cable in the one cable.... (they are also used in cases where a reliable wifi signal isnt available at the chargers location in home EV installs as well- thats obviously a single phase cable below
This is OLD stuff outside the US you know.... it was all thought of and allowed for a decade ago lol
Rolfe
Adult human female
I wouldn't have thought a block of flats needed something as sophisticated as a Zappi at every parking bay. But that's for the management committee to discuss with the installer and the residents. There are many options available and different setups will choose different solutions. It's basically a solved problem.
One of the reasons EV adoption was so rapid in Norway is that it was/is normal there for car parking spaces to have electrical outlets so that people could plug in engine block heaters. This applies to employee parking at work as well as residential parking. They just wired in chargers to the existing supply. But it can be done anywhere that has mains electricity. Around here it has been in the building regulations for some time that an electrical supply for a car charger has to be included in all new builds. Adding these to existing properties isn't hard.
I can't understand the negativity here. Human beings managed, over a hundred years ago, to install mains water, sewage, gas and electricity into enormous numbers of buildings that had never been designed for any such thing. Was there a lot of hand-wringing and cries that it was all too difficult, then? Maybe there was some, but it was done anyway. This is child's play by comparison.
Imagine the nay-sayers in the early days of the ICE car, telling us all that pharmacies and corner shops couldn't possibly cope with the demand for cans of petrol! But somehow, within a fairly short time, a network of petrol stations appeared, serviced by tanker lorries coming from local refineries.
Wiring in 7 kw car chargers to parking bays, in properties that already have a mains electricity supply, is no harder than, say having a phone put in back in the day. We're now entering the second quarter of the 21st century. We have the technology!
One of the reasons EV adoption was so rapid in Norway is that it was/is normal there for car parking spaces to have electrical outlets so that people could plug in engine block heaters. This applies to employee parking at work as well as residential parking. They just wired in chargers to the existing supply. But it can be done anywhere that has mains electricity. Around here it has been in the building regulations for some time that an electrical supply for a car charger has to be included in all new builds. Adding these to existing properties isn't hard.
I can't understand the negativity here. Human beings managed, over a hundred years ago, to install mains water, sewage, gas and electricity into enormous numbers of buildings that had never been designed for any such thing. Was there a lot of hand-wringing and cries that it was all too difficult, then? Maybe there was some, but it was done anyway. This is child's play by comparison.
Imagine the nay-sayers in the early days of the ICE car, telling us all that pharmacies and corner shops couldn't possibly cope with the demand for cans of petrol! But somehow, within a fairly short time, a network of petrol stations appeared, serviced by tanker lorries coming from local refineries.
Wiring in 7 kw car chargers to parking bays, in properties that already have a mains electricity supply, is no harder than, say having a phone put in back in the day. We're now entering the second quarter of the 21st century. We have the technology!
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Jack by the hedge
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Well to be fair, it was the piecemeal installation of flush toilets replacing pit latrines which led to the pollution that eventually caused the infamous Great Stink in London. And that had to be sorted out with the great works to invent modern sewers and waste water management.
It absolutely needed doing, but things got worse before a fortune was spent and then they got better. Like every city, London had got by for many centuries by digging holes and pooping in them. But then individual householders discovered the marvels of just washing all of that away, and it was only when enough of them were doing it that the burden on the city's infrastructure of vast amounts of foul water flowing away became obvious.
So here again, it absolutely needs doing, we just need to keep an eye on what's coming when everyone does it.
Retrofitting any new system into an existing structure requires redoing something.
In a large condo building it requires the consent of all residents to do it in common areas.
Some wanted a charge point years ago. Some don't want the inconvenience of the work being done nor to pay for something they will never use. Many will be quite obtuse about it.
Ultimately every resident will be paying for a new electric service or transformer on the building to upgrade to the possibility of every parking bay having a charge point available.
Rolfe would be on the committee angry others are resisting because they don't drive much anymore, but don't want to sell the Cadillac just yet or pay for stuff others want.
Compromise could be a difficult sell.
An example, I lived on a street that lobbied for the city to pave over the dirt road for ten years. When the city was finally ready they agreed to pay labor and residents paid for materials. It took four months to get 24 homeowners on board even reluctantly and more time for some to cough up money even partially. Rentals were the most difficult.
It didn't matter to some it increased property values a lot .
This was just a one block stretch of road.
The next block one refused to pay at all so they skipped his half of the street in front of his home. Much time later it still isn't done, his house will lose value at sale but he is dead,he don't care.
In a large condo building it requires the consent of all residents to do it in common areas.
Some wanted a charge point years ago. Some don't want the inconvenience of the work being done nor to pay for something they will never use. Many will be quite obtuse about it.
Ultimately every resident will be paying for a new electric service or transformer on the building to upgrade to the possibility of every parking bay having a charge point available.
Rolfe would be on the committee angry others are resisting because they don't drive much anymore, but don't want to sell the Cadillac just yet or pay for stuff others want.
Compromise could be a difficult sell.
An example, I lived on a street that lobbied for the city to pave over the dirt road for ten years. When the city was finally ready they agreed to pay labor and residents paid for materials. It took four months to get 24 homeowners on board even reluctantly and more time for some to cough up money even partially. Rentals were the most difficult.
It didn't matter to some it increased property values a lot .
This was just a one block stretch of road.
The next block one refused to pay at all so they skipped his half of the street in front of his home. Much time later it still isn't done, his house will lose value at sale but he is dead,he don't care.
Dabop
Master Poster
No one is suggesting using individual Zappis (which are a home unit) in a 'commercial' setting such as a block of flats- thats why there are specific chargers which are designed to work in such situations that would be installed- so that the entire charging system as a whole can be coordinated...
Its just that this tech is so 'old hat' that EVEN home chargers (outside the US that is lol) already have it... let alone commercial grade systems...
Supply monitoring and charge throttling is the 'default standard' on practically every brand of EV charger home or commercial- if the supply approaches its preprogrammed limit (set during the install configuration to the maximum current rating that the buildings cabling can handle) then the EV charge rate will be reduced to ensure that the buildings transformer doesn't 'go up in smoke' so in a block of flats with a managed charge system, say its dinner time and everyone is turning on their ovens at the same time- the building may be approaching it maximum current limit- so the managed charge system sees this happening, and starts reducing the charge current to ALL the EVs on charge- and when the building load reduces, freeing up more capacity, it ramps the charge rate back up again
This is EASY stuff to implement- and is so cheap and easy to do that all EV chargers pretty much have it included in them already...
No need to put in a bigger transformer, no need to 'figure out how it can be done' its ALREADY standard equipment in EV chargers around the world and already in use LOL
Its just that this tech is so 'old hat' that EVEN home chargers (outside the US that is lol) already have it... let alone commercial grade systems...
Supply monitoring and charge throttling is the 'default standard' on practically every brand of EV charger home or commercial- if the supply approaches its preprogrammed limit (set during the install configuration to the maximum current rating that the buildings cabling can handle) then the EV charge rate will be reduced to ensure that the buildings transformer doesn't 'go up in smoke' so in a block of flats with a managed charge system, say its dinner time and everyone is turning on their ovens at the same time- the building may be approaching it maximum current limit- so the managed charge system sees this happening, and starts reducing the charge current to ALL the EVs on charge- and when the building load reduces, freeing up more capacity, it ramps the charge rate back up again
This is EASY stuff to implement- and is so cheap and easy to do that all EV chargers pretty much have it included in them already...
No need to put in a bigger transformer, no need to 'figure out how it can be done' its ALREADY standard equipment in EV chargers around the world and already in use LOL
It is existing technology and its proven. But it costs money. It's harder to convince people to release that money be it government or individuals. Put it in a committee situation and watch the fireworks show.
No HOA or condo meetings required makes changes and options easy.
We wanted solar hot water, so we installed it. You wanted an EV so you got one and made the changes in your home to charge it.
Our neighbors didn't want either instead bought a big diesel pickup truck.
Nobody was up in arms about any of it.
No HOA or condo meetings required makes changes and options easy.
We wanted solar hot water, so we installed it. You wanted an EV so you got one and made the changes in your home to charge it.
Our neighbors didn't want either instead bought a big diesel pickup truck.
Nobody was up in arms about any of it.
Dabop
Master Poster
And in most countries- the residents DEMAND that EV charging be part of the building infrastructure (it really isnt that expensive to do even) and building owners have quickly found that unless they do have EV charging available- then demand for the flats (and the prices they can ask) drops- and as more and more people come onboard with EVs- that trend is only going to accelerate...
Smart building management will be the ones that get in early and make that EV charging is available a selling point- the ones that refuse will soon be relegated to being the 'poor mans slum housing- cheap and nasty- hell they dont even have charging available at this dump...'
You are right and I hope the EV revolution gains speed. But it's not everywhere, yet.
My little semi rural community became a lot less rural in the last two years, they had to change a transformer within the last year to support just the number of new homes.and told us to learn to reduce our use. The old was at 90 to 100VAC on my hokey meter and now we get a solid 125VAC but on a 15 amp house breaker. For the whole house. It rarely snaps off because we updated our stuff to newer low draw items. The refrigerator was the one that made a big difference.
I hope to live to see an EV we can support in my home. Right now it would have to be hybrid.
My little semi rural community became a lot less rural in the last two years, they had to change a transformer within the last year to support just the number of new homes.and told us to learn to reduce our use. The old was at 90 to 100VAC on my hokey meter and now we get a solid 125VAC but on a 15 amp house breaker. For the whole house. It rarely snaps off because we updated our stuff to newer low draw items. The refrigerator was the one that made a big difference.
I hope to live to see an EV we can support in my home. Right now it would have to be hybrid.
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
As a kind of slightly off-topic aside, although some might see 8enotto's doubts as unfounded or excessive, I would never underestimate the short sight of those who do not see their lives as part of a community. A glancing reference to current national policies in which such community services as social safety nets and emergency response are being gutted, but also I would mention that my wife once lived in a rural Massachusetts town with a large part time population, in which many summer residents complained of having to pay taxes to support winter snowplowing. In my own town it's a perennial argument of some that if they have no children in school they should not pay school taxes, and some years ago a few people began a heated argument in town meeting over teachers' salaries, contending that because teachers get the summer off, their annual salaries should not provide a year's living. They're out there!
Dabop
Master Poster
Thats crazy lol
A single 15A breaker on 120v is a whole 1800w/1.8kw....
My place is totally offgrid Lithium cells charged by solar- I was running a 12v 8000w inverter to run the caravan and shed since 2019- just this year upgraded to the 48v 12000w inverter (mind you its still only running on the 1.5kw 'temporary' solar array until I get the full 18kw system up on the roof....
That 8kw system was 230v at 35A, the 12kw inverter is running at up to 60A at 230v....
Your place literally couldn't even run my electric kettle- its 2400w lol (230v at 10A)
And yes- I do all my cooking on electric- I do have a LPG gas stove in the caravan- its still got over half a tank left- from 2018...
Even my sisters car (which has a 2400w inverter in it to charge the laptop or whatever) can outpower your houses 'mains'...
A totally bog standard VW Tiguan...
Mind you, theres a BYD Atto is already in town not far from my place- he's offgrid too- and it runs his Atto's charger and he's only got 10kw of panels up.....
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bruto
Penultimate Amazing
I must say that indeed, 8enotto's electric situation is pretty dire. Here in the states, a 60 amp 240 volt service is long obsolete, and my 100 amp service is considered pretty old-fashioned. I can run my house in emergencies on 30 amps (backup generator) with relative ease if I budget a little and turn off the electric water heater. That includes oil burner, stove, water pump, and so forth, and could support the water heater too with a little planning. But that's 30 amps on split phase, which means that I actually get two 30 amp circuits at 120 volts, when the pump isn't on.
15 amps is way down there, especially if the breaker isn't slow blow to account for starting surges. If stuck with this and I had the resources, I think I'd at least seek out a deep cycle battery and a power inverter to handle the occasional need for extra load. You could plug in some high load equipment briefly and then slowly restore the battery's charge at low amperage during the off-peak.
BAck in the long ago long ago I lived in an apartment with a 15 amp service, a fuse locked in the basement that might wait a day for replacement. I had to be extra careful when to run the toaster and such. It was an interesting challenge, because some of the wiring was also very old and nasty, but I couldn't shut off power to fix it. At one point I had to rewire an overhead light whose insulation had rotted off and started sparking, all with the power on. A success but slow and scary!
15 amps is way down there, especially if the breaker isn't slow blow to account for starting surges. If stuck with this and I had the resources, I think I'd at least seek out a deep cycle battery and a power inverter to handle the occasional need for extra load. You could plug in some high load equipment briefly and then slowly restore the battery's charge at low amperage during the off-peak.
BAck in the long ago long ago I lived in an apartment with a 15 amp service, a fuse locked in the basement that might wait a day for replacement. I had to be extra careful when to run the toaster and such. It was an interesting challenge, because some of the wiring was also very old and nasty, but I couldn't shut off power to fix it. At one point I had to rewire an overhead light whose insulation had rotted off and started sparking, all with the power on. A success but slow and scary!