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Cont: Electric Vehicles II

Not the only time acceleration can be important...
Indeed it is MUCH more important at highway speeds- for overtaking...

My old Hilux requires a good couple of kilometres of 'clear sight' to safety overtake- its a bloody slug overtaking even on a semi... and around here, double road trains are more common- that is closer to 3-4km to overtake one.... I have had to stamp the brakes and 'drop back in behind' quite a few times simply because oncoming traffic appeared before the old 'Lux' managed to get past a double road train....

Where the Atto with its MUCH better acceleration rate is actually a MUCH safer vehicle to highway drive- simply because it goes like a scalded cat when you plant it....

So your characterisation of acceleration only being important for 'rednecks, punks, and mouth breathers' as you put it only shows yourself up.......

And EV's are quite cheap- hell I looked at a replacement diesel for the Lux- over $6k for a reco diesel fitted, the Atto I am looking at (the most expensive one mind you as its the 400km plus LR version) is $44k literally only six times the price of repowering my 20 year old Hilux....- if I didn't live in a remote rural area and went the shorter range standard version, that is only $32k...

Mind you I can't even buy a base model new Hilux for anywhere near that- the 2 door single cab like mine in the 'Workmate' trim level (rubber mats, vinyl seats basic tradies pack in other works) is $51k!!! the usual 'family' crewcab ute is closer to $70k....
1. I did not did not say acceleration is only important for 'rednecks, punks, and mouth breathers'. That was aimed at novaphile's "as they desperately try to catch up". The implication being that ICE drivers desperately want to race EV drivers off the line and are shattered that they cannot. Of course acceleration can be important. Just not every time you start from a green light.

2. No idea what a Hilux is but my 6 cyl Venza has more than adequate power to pass a slower vehicle on the highway in a matter of seconds.

3. $32k might be 'quite cheap" in your world. In mine it might as well be $32 million. I do not have, and never will have, money to spend on a new, or even a good used, car. If and when my Venza becomes undrivable I will be switching to public transportation.
 
We drive a compact hybrid and average 55mpg. We have driven 600 miles on one tank of gas.

Seriously, who cares? It only matters if you hate going into petrol stations. (Which I do as it happens.)

My life with an EV, this week.

Sunday, got home in the evening on 32% battery following a number of relatively short journeys over the previous few days. Plugged the car in.
Monday, didn't go anywhere.
Tuesday, six miles. No need to plug in again, obviously.
Wednesday, 60 miles. Still no need to plug in.
Thursday, didn't go anywhere.
Friday, 30 miles. Down to about 38%. Plugged the car in, anticipating Saturday.
Saturday, 80 miles. Down to 43%. (It was mostly motorway - I was going fast - and quite a cold day.) Plugged the car in again, anticipating Sunday which will probably be about 40 miles.

Do you see any visits to petrol stations there? No. Do you see any visits to public chargers there? Again no. Do you see any time spent hanging around? No.

It takes literally seconds to plug the car in, and ditto to unplug it. Maybe half a minute to do both. It's more hassle putting my phone on charge. I can go on like this indefinitely. 30 seconds maybe twice a week on average to charge the car. And this isn't a particularly long-range car. The number of times a year my daily drive exceeds the range of the car, the range I have when I wake up in the morning with no effort on my part, can be counted on the fingers of one finger, really. It hardly ever happens. It is indescribably painless.

Things are different on long journeys (I mean travelling to overnight stays) of course. Then I need to stop to charge. But even with a fairly short-range car I'm driving between two and four hours before I need to stop (depending on the weather, especially the ambient temperature, and the speed I'm going at). I do need to eat from time to time. Driving all day, fast on the motorway, I'll need to stop three times. Lunch, afternoon coffee and evening meal. If this was too onerous and I'd prefer to omit the coffee break, I should have spent a little (only a little) more on the longer-range model of my car. Then I'd only need to stop twice in a full day's driving. If you don't do that you're a danger on the road.

Who the hell ever needs to drive for 600 miles without a break? What is the actual point? In a full day's driving with an average EV you'll typically only have to stop a couple of times for half an hour or so. You'd be doing that anyway, whatever you were driving. When you stop, again you spend literally seconds plugging the car in, then you go off to eat and use the facilities and so on, and when you're done, so is the car. Again there's no pointless hanging about.

There are EVs with a real world range of over 300 miles available. With something like that you'd literally only have to stop once in this very long day of driving. That's actually not long enough. It's almost pointless.

The obsession with how far you can drive an ICE car before you have to visit a petrol station is something that only started when EVs appeared. It's the most pathetic gotcha imaginable. How far can I drive my EV before I have to visit a petrol station? Forever, as it happens.

(Yes, I know. "I haven't got a drive, it would never work for me!" It may not work for you right now, but it will when the solutions for overnight charging for people without a drive have been comprehensively rolled out. "I couldn't afford your car!" Maybe not, at the moment. Though you might be surprised. EVs are too new for there to be a lot of steal-of-a-bargain used cars around as yet. But there will be. EVs are more durable than ICE cars by virtue of their simplicity and lack of moving parts. Just give it a few years.)
 
1. I did not did not say acceleration is only important for 'rednecks, punks, and mouth breathers'. That was aimed at novaphile's "as they desperately try to catch up". The implication being that ICE drivers desperately want to race EV drivers off the line and are shattered that they cannot. Of course acceleration can be important. Just not every time you start from a green light.

2. No idea what a Hilux is but my 6 cyl Venza has more than adequate power to pass a slower vehicle on the highway in a matter of seconds.

3. $32k might be 'quite cheap" in your world. In mine it might as well be $32 million. I do not have, and never will have, money to spend on a new, or even a good used, car. If and when my Venza becomes undrivable I will be switching to public transportation.
My Hilux is a 4 cylinder, non turbo 2.8L diesel 4wd- anyone who knows diesels knows what that means... its slower than a wet week....
1760220940226.png
Even slower when you feed it the wrong fuel....
:-(
(Bad when your partner has the petrol version, and you have been driving theirs for the last month while pulling the gearbox out- then finally getting it running again and filling your diesel up with unleaded petrol at the servo... DOH...)

Overtaking a double trailer roadtrain in the Lux takes twenty to thirty seconds or more....triples are rarer here (more out further west than I am, but not totally unheard of here lol)- but that closer to a minute on the wrong side of the road...
(I seriously doubt your six cylinder could do it in 'seconds' lol)
This is a 'double' train...
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This is a triple...
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Even the XR8 Falcon (worked V8 high performance ute from Ford) couldnt do it in 'seconds' lol
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The next car I buy will likely be the last ever 'new car' I will own- and as the Atto 3 EV is actually CHEAPER than even the base model petrol or diesel Hilux new (by 20 grand or more!!!!)- well, guess what it will be....
1760222328284.jpeg
Hell if I had the extra dosh, I'd get the Shark Hybrid instead- 80km on battery and then runs on petrol, 4wd looks just like a Hilux and STILL cheaper than a new diesel Hilux....
1760222436146.jpeg
But 60K is just too much to stretch these days....
 
Thinking about a week on Wednesday, this could be an unusual day. I have to go to the dentist in the afternoon, that's 60 miles round trip, then I have a ticket for the opera in the evening, that's another 95 miles round trip. 155 miles. Could be done, but it will be down to 3 degrees that night, and I'll be returning late. I'm not driving that close to the wire thank-you-very-much. Should have got the longer range car, right?

Well, not really. There are 7 kw chargers in the car park where I park for the opera. I've used them about twice in two and a half years, under similar circumstances. There's no time wasted, they're on the ground floor and it's actually quicker to drive there and plug in than it is to drive several floors up looking for a regular space free then walk down the stairs. I can certainly get there on one charge even after doing the dentist run, it's just over 100 miles. So plug in while I'm at the opera and I'll have plenty to get home on. The only downside is that these chargers cost 40p, as opposed to only 7p at home. I might even stop the charge from my phone at the interval, just to be stingy. If I remember. Whatever. The car is so cheap to run that it's silly to get precious about a couple of quid for public charging once in a blue moon.

But wait a minute, what am I thinking of. Do I actually want to do this? The dentist appointment is for 2.30. Say I'm out by three. It will be nearly four by the time I get home. I probably should leave about 5.30 to get to the opera, giving myself time for a sandwich and a drink when I get there. An hour and a half at home, for what? The dentist is more than half way to Glasgow, where the opera is. What the hell is the point of driving 30 miles home, then driving back that 30 miles again less than two hours later.

I should skip that pointless 60 miles, cut my whole day down to 100-110 miles. I email the friend I go to the opera with, I explain to her that I will be arriving at her house (in Glasgow) around four, we will be getting in fish and chips or something, then I will drive her to the opera and back home again afterwards. And I'd be doing that even if I had my petrol car and it just happened to have enough petrol in it for the entire 155 miles, anyway.

Why am I posting this stream of consciousness? To point out two things. First that driving 150 miles in a day just to do the things you actually have to do or want to do that day is not really a good use of anyone's time. I'd be looking at spending at least four and a half hours behind the wheel if I returned home between the trips. Not for preference. I'd try to avoid that anyway. And second, that there are always options, usually options that still don't involve any waiting around, if you do have to add a bit of range during a long day.

Oh, and plan C would simply be to stop at the Tesla superchargers at the Dakota Eurocentral on the way home. It would take no longer than a petrol stop, as I could add enough to get home comfortably in five minutes on one of these things.

(Come to think of it, that's probably plan D. I forgot the possibility of putting the car on my home charger for an hour or so if I did go home between the dentist and the opera. My day rate is 30p, but that's still cheaper than the 7 kw posts in the car park, and cheaper than Tesla too. There are always more options than you realise.)

Honestly, range just isn't an issue, even with only a 51 kwh battery in a cold climate.
 
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Never seen anything
My Hilux is a 4 cylinder, non turbo 2.8L diesel 4wd- anyone who knows diesels knows what that means... its slower than a wet week....
View attachment 64630
Even slower when you feed it the wrong fuel....
:-(
(Bad when your partner has the petrol version, and you have been driving theirs for the last month while pulling the gearbox out- then finally getting it running again and filling your diesel up with unleaded petrol at the servo... DOH...)

Overtaking a double trailer roadtrain in the Lux takes twenty to thirty seconds or more....triples are rarer here (more out further west than I am, but not totally unheard of here lol)- but that closer to a minute on the wrong side of the road...
(I seriously doubt your six cylinder could do it in 'seconds' lol)
This is a 'double' train...
View attachment 64631
This is a triple...
View attachment 64633
Even the XR8 Falcon (worked V8 high performance ute from Ford) couldnt do it in 'seconds' lol
View attachment 64634
The next car I buy will likely be the last ever 'new car' I will own- and as the Atto 3 EV is actually CHEAPER than even the base model petrol or diesel Hilux new (by 20 grand or more!!!!)- well, guess what it will be....
View attachment 64635
Hell if I had the extra dosh, I'd get the Shark Hybrid instead- 80km on battery and then runs on petrol, 4wd looks just like a Hilux and STILL cheaper than a new diesel Hilux....
View attachment 64636
But 60K is just too much to stretch these days....
Never seen anything like those trucks on the road here, so I have no need for a vehicle that would overtake them at any speed. 10 seconds or so in overdrive to overtake a single trailer truck would be about normal.

So a Hilux is a small diesel pickup. Cute.
 
Never seen anything

Never seen anything like those trucks on the road here, so I have no need for a vehicle that would overtake them at any speed. 10 seconds or so in overdrive to overtake a single trailer truck would be about normal.

So a Hilux is a small diesel pickup. Cute.
Overdrive to pass?
My current car (with CVT) drops out of top gear (overdrive) in order to deliver the acceleration to overtake when cruising at high speed.
 
Overdrive? Didn't that stop being a thing several decades ago? It was a gear for cruising at speed, with little acceleration capability, and it was superseded by better arrangements.
 
Even out where I am (VERY rural Queensland) range anxiety simply isn't a 'thing' with EV owners- and thats on the current crop of EVs lol
The Atto can do a '100km topup' in under ten minutes if needed-and its a slow charging beast compared to some of the newer ones.... or a 20% to 80% in less than half an hour (giving a 350km range) thats on top of waking up in the morning with a 'full tank' of over 400km....

The owner of the Atto i test drove had only rcently done a trip to Melbourne and back in it- and even it was capable of 'out driving' the driver- he had to stop and go to sleep, while the car could have kept going....

So whats the point of even MORE range- when 99% of use cases dont need it (and IF you want to do a 'Cannonball Run' crosscountry without stopping- there ARE EVs more suited to that- but they arent as cheap...)

I just saw (FB link a friend sent me) about a '2000 mile EV' between recharges... for the love of god- WHY?????
Whats the point????

Hell if you want to drive halfway across Australia in a single go without stopping once- well you already can do that in a hybrid BYD Seal (yes- it can go 2000km without stopping once lol) but I will leave that to others-I dont want to be riding with that person, make trump smell like a rose in comparison after you been locked up in a car nonstop for 2000km....
PEEEHEEEWWWW.....
1760226135576.png
Never seen anything

Never seen anything like those trucks on the road here, so I have no need for a vehicle that would overtake them at any speed. 10 seconds or so in overdrive to overtake a single trailer truck would be about normal.

So a Hilux is a small diesel pickup. Cute.
Its a one tonner, same as a Landcruiser
We dont go for the yank penis substitutes lol- cost too much to buy ($140k PLUS!!! :jaw-dropp), and waaay too much to run...
Oh your semis only have a single trailer- how CUTE!!!!!
rubs it under the chin- what do you want to be when you grow up?????
:ROFLMAO:

Hiluxes are also well known for being one of the toughest 4wd's on the planet- hell TopGear tried to kill a 84 2.4D wellside- identical to one of my former Hiluxes- and couldnt.....
part 1 of 3...

Oh and my old 84??? its still running and in use after a small accident- not registerable, but in use as a farm ute for the last 15 years after the crash lol
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Front diff STILL has one of my chains and dogs from my old tilt tray holding the axle in place....
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Sighs- all because of a broken handbrake cable on a hillside- stopped to open the gate into the horse paddock, drove through, stopped again to close the gate so the horses didnt get out, and turned around to find... um didnt I drive here???????
1760227106270.jpeg
 
Overdrive? Didn't that stop being a thing several decades ago? It was a gear for cruising at speed, with little acceleration capability, and it was superseded by better arrangements.
Overdrive is a technical term- specifically that the output shaft is turning faster than the input shaft on the gearbox ('top' gear (besides being a show) was always 1:1) so any gear that is under 1:1 is an overdrive... (my Hilux for example has its fifth gear is an overdrive at 0.85:1) ie it is 'actually' a 4 speed with an overdrive 5th...

Almost all modern gearboxes (auto and manual) have at least one overdrive, some have a couple even...

Some of the late model Holden's for example have two!!!!
1760238622132.png
Crazy- my first Holden had a three speed manual (three on the tree EH) one of my later ones had the venerable old two speed PowerGlide auto... - yep two whole gears low and drive....
1760238813228.png
NINE gears??????
Even my tilt-tray doesn't have that many lol

Although its funny as we are going in a complete circle- most EVs have NO gearbox at all, a very few have a 2 speed mechanical, but its really not needed as unlike ICE cars, an EV develops its maximum torque at zero RPM...... and having a mechanical box adds extra friction losses to the drivetrain....

So from 2 speed, to 9 speed, and now 'no speed' gearboxes in EVs lol
 
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My life with an EV, this week.

Sunday, got home in the evening on 32% battery following a number of relatively short journeys over the previous few days. Plugged the car in.
Monday, didn't go anywhere.
Tuesday, six miles. No need to plug in again, obviously.
Wednesday, 60 miles. Still no need to plug in.
Thursday, didn't go anywhere.
Friday, 30 miles. Down to about 38%. Plugged the car in, anticipating Saturday.
Saturday, 80 miles. Down to 43%. (It was mostly motorway - I was going fast - and quite a cold day.) Plugged the car in again, anticipating Sunday which will probably be about 40 miles.

Even out where I am (VERY rural Queensland) range anxiety simply isn't a 'thing' with EV owners- and thats on the current crop of EVs lol
The Atto can do a '100km topup' in under ten minutes if needed-and its a slow charging beast compared to some of the newer ones.... or a 20% to 80% in less than half an hour (giving a 350km range) thats on top of waking up in the morning with a 'full tank' of over 400km....

I note both of you are in countries with 220-240 volt mains and as far as I know you each have a private homes. Here in North America residential wiring is 110-120 volts, meaning cars using Level 1 chargers will charge at half the rate. It is possible to get Level 2 chargers (220-240 volts) installed, but that option's currently available only if you live in a detached or semi-detached private residence.

I live in a large condominium complex and the board is still figuring out how to supply EV charging for residents, so I'm unable to charge at home. For me to charge an EV, I'd have to visit either a public charger somewhere or a charging station owned by one of a couple of companies setting them up around town. I'm not sure where they are because I don't need any right now. In 2025 they're certainly not as ubiquitous as filling stations. When I find a charging station that's unoccupied and in working order, I'll need to find a way to chill out for half an hour to an hour way from home while the car charges, something I'm not very good at. Not too bad in the spring, summer, and fall, but no fun at all in -24°C weather.
 
I note both of you are in countries with 220-240 volt mains and as far as I know you each have a private homes. Here in North America residential wiring is 110-120 volts, meaning cars using Level 1 chargers will charge at half the rate. It is possible to get Level 2 chargers (220-240 volts) installed, but that option's currently available only if you live in a detached or semi-detached private residence.

I live in a large condominium complex and the board is still figuring out how to supply EV charging for residents, so I'm unable to charge at home. For me to charge an EV, I'd have to visit either a public charger somewhere or a charging station owned by one of a couple of companies setting them up around town. I'm not sure where they are because I don't need any right now. In 2025 they're certainly not as ubiquitous as filling stations. When I find a charging station that's unoccupied and in working order, I'll need to find a way to chill out for half an hour to an hour way from home while the car charges, something I'm not very good at. Not too bad in the spring, summer, and fall, but no fun at all in -24°C weather.

Yes, I know. "I haven't got a drive, it would never work for me!" It may not work for you right now, but it will when the solutions for overnight charging for people without a drive have been comprehensively rolled out. [...] Just give it a few years.

Only idiots are claiming that running an EV will work for everyone right now. Only idiots imagine that this state of affairs will pertain forever.
 
Only idiots are claiming that running an EV will work for everyone right now. Only idiots imagine that this state of affairs will pertain forever.
The "give it a few years" may be a sticking point for me. My current vehicle is 18 years old. Still runs very nicely, but this year I had to do a couple of expensive repairs, although I shelled out less money than I would have for payments on a replacement vehicle. But if it gives me another expensive repair next year I'll have to reconsider. At that point I'll need to make a choice between full BEV, which I would prefer, or a hybrid, which while being the best of both worlds is more complex.
 
I note both of you are in countries with 220-240 volt mains and as far as I know you each have a private homes. Here in North America residential wiring is 110-120 volts, meaning cars using Level 1 chargers will charge at half the rate. It is possible to get Level 2 chargers (220-240 volts) installed, but that option's currently available only if you live in a detached or semi-detached private residence.

I live in a large condominium complex and the board is still figuring out how to supply EV charging for residents, so I'm unable to charge at home. For me to charge an EV, I'd have to visit either a public charger somewhere or a charging station owned by one of a couple of companies setting them up around town. I'm not sure where they are because I don't need any right now. In 2025 they're certainly not as ubiquitous as filling stations. When I find a charging station that's unoccupied and in working order, I'll need to find a way to chill out for half an hour to an hour way from home while the car charges, something I'm not very good at. Not too bad in the spring, summer, and fall, but no fun at all in -24°C weather.
The US and a handful of other countries that use that 120/240v system will have some problems- shame you lot didn't join 'TROTW' on 230v when you had the chance lol

A block of flats as they would be called here is usually one of the EASIER places to put EV charging into if there is parking for the residents- they usually have a much larger supply cable wattage than any residential home- and 'flat chargers' are a dime a dozen here and in the UK- you dont even need 'assigned parking' for most- just park at any available charger and plug it in, swipe your phone or residents card/fob and it automatically assigns the cost to that flats EV charge account... many blocks of flats here already offer EV charge points as 'standard' especially those in the more affluent suburbs- not having EV charge points available can be a real turnoff for many lol- marking those blocks as 'down market'... and lowering the potential rental price markedly...

So something like these RFID systems can be installed with ease- and they don't even have to be assigned to a specific bay/car (although you can if you want)- pull up to any free charger in your car and plug it in, and wave the RFID tag on your keys or use the app on your phone, and it starts charging your car, billing it to your units EV account....
1760260899305.png
https://www.evolutionaustralia.com.au/electric-car-charging-for-apartments
So the real issue is poor building management... if they aren't interested- they will eventually end up being the proud management of a slum building lol

(A mate down in Sydney had those exact same chargers in his block of flats I think- or very similar ones- they started off with just a few, but as more EVs started moving in, they had already allowed for future expansion and literally adding an extra charger was only a few minutes work whenever they needed more....)

1760261747014.png
As you can see, its not hard finding people that can do it in most countries.....
 
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When T got her Monotracer it seemed a bit of a mid-life thing, however it's actually rather handy in the city and even for weekends away (if it's just two) with some luggage. Range of 400km, which is fine.
 
The "give it a few years" may be a sticking point for me. My current vehicle is 18 years old. Still runs very nicely, but this year I had to do a couple of expensive repairs, although I shelled out less money than I would have for payments on a replacement vehicle. But if it gives me another expensive repair next year I'll have to reconsider. At that point I'll need to make a choice between full BEV, which I would prefer, or a hybrid, which while being the best of both worlds is more complex.

Hybrids are the worst of both worlds. But I don't think the answer to your dilemma is complex. If an EV won't work for you, buy anything you like - second hand. The fundamental issue is not bringing any more internal combustion engines into the world. Those already here aren't going to be scrapped while they have useful life in them though, and they're all there for you to choose from.
 
The US and a handful of other countries that use that 120/240v system will have some problems- shame you lot didn't join 'TROTW' on 230v when you had the chance lol

A block of flats as they would be called here is usually one of the EASIER places to put EV charging into if there is parking for the residents- they usually have a much larger supply cable wattage than any residential home- and 'flat chargers' are a dime a dozen here and in the UK- you don't even need 'assigned parking' for most- just park at any available charger and plug it in, swipe your phone or resident's card/fob and it automatically assigns the cost to that flat's EV charge account... many blocks of flats here already offer EV charge points as 'standard' especially those in the more affluent suburbs- not having EV charge points available can be a real turnoff for many lol- marking those blocks as 'down market'... and lowering the potential rental price markedly...
I think you'll find it's more complicated than that.. I said "large condominium complex." We have 300 units and I rather doubt the building's current dedicated transformer can supply 250 Level 2 chargers. It doesn't have to, of course; half a dozen would suffice. But we have no place to put them! All the parking stalls are currently owned by one or more units, so if we wanted to add five chargers the condo corporation would have to buy out the parking stalls from their current owners, and those five unit owners would have to find alternate parking or give up their vehicles. We also have limited room to expand our parking area; the entire perimeter of the building's lot is already in use, save for a "green area" that's used by unit owners walking their dogs. We might be able to put parking there, but I suspect it would require some work with the city—we tend to be quite protective of our green zones.

So something like these RFID systems can be installed with ease- and they don't even have to be assigned to a specific bay/car (although you can if you want)- pull up to any free charger in your car and plug it in, and wave the RFID tag on your keys or use the app on your phone, and it starts charging your car, billing it to your units EV account....
View attachment 64648
https://www.evolutionaustralia.com.au/electric-car-charging-for-apartments
So the real issue is poor building management... if they aren't interested- they will eventually end up being the proud management of a slum building lol
On the contrary, our building is very well run. The board is interested and there is some pressure from the unit owners, but right now it's lower on the priority list. The building's fifty years old and needs maintenance, and not all of it is minor.

(A mate down in Sydney had those exact same chargers in his block of flats I think- or very similar ones- they started off with just a few, but as more EVs started moving in, they had already allowed for future expansion and literally adding an extra charger was only a few minutes work whenever they needed more....)
Our building has ~250 stalls, 70+ of them outdoors, and every single stall is already owned by a unit. We can’t just "add a box" without buying out parking stall owners, reshuffling parking rights, and proving the transformer can handle the extra load.

So the “just a few minutes of work” story doesn’t apply here—our constraints are legal and electrical, not technical.
 
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Hybrids are the worst of both worlds. But I don't think the answer to your dilemma is complex. If an EV won't work for you, buy anything you like - second hand. The fundamental issue is not bringing any more internal combustion engines into the world. Those already here aren't going to be scrapped while they have useful life in them though, and they're all there for you to choose from.
While I said a hybrid may be the best of both worlds, that's only for me. I agree that hybrids are only a stop-gap and will likely disappear altogether in a few years. And I've never purchased a new vehicle: the depreciation in the first year of ownership far exceeds any repairs that a decent second-hand has.
 
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When T got her Monotracer it seemed a bit of a mid-life thing, however it's actually rather handy in the city and even for weekends away (if it's just two) with some luggage. Range of 400km, which is fine.
Thats what the Atto has as its range (420km) and there's several of them (as well as a couple of BYD Seals and even MG4's) where I live- and thats about as far from 'the city' as you can get.... and no-one here has any issues with them having 'limited range' lol
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The Atto is head of my list as its a 5 seater mid sized SUV- and most importantly for me- in Australia it has legal and approved towbars are available- up to 1200kg on a braked trailer...
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(As I have rental trailers here, having something that can actually tow is kinda important lol- that was the deal breaker for the MG- no legal towbars here (yet)- but I actually prefer the BYD instead anyway...)
This ones over in sandgroper land (Western Australia) and he's only got the light duty towbar lol
A real 'city' car lol
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9 mins long
 

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