Split Thread [Ed] Personal experiences with gays

[dafydd]

Now how exactly would you know if the males I have met who act masculine are gay or not?

How do you know that some of them were not? Some prefer to stay in the closet.

 

[Pacal]

As a gay man I've meet some effeminate Gay men and I've meet effeminate straight men. From my own experience I would say that effeminate straight men outnumber effeminate Gay men. As for most Gay men being obviously effeminate well since the great majority of Gay men I've known are not obviously effeminate at all I think that is just wrong to assume that Gay men are in general effeminate. After all mnay of the Gay men I've known have been in the Army and one was a semi-pro football player. you do realize that the Gay men you knew, which seems to be the party circuit crowd and those associated with things like ballroom dancing have their own "culture" and when they associate with each other they "camp it up". It is a fact that an aspect of Gay culture that many Gay men when together in numbers "camp" or you might say act effeminate and when not in that situation don't act quite so effeminate at all. The overwhelming majority of the Gay men I've known in my life when they came out as Gay their friends and relatives had not a single suspicion and those that did did so mainly because X was not interested in dating the opposite sex not because they acted effeminate or "Gay".

 

[Darat]

This knowledge comes from me personally knowing hundreds of men who act masculine. Out of those hundreds, not one of them who acts masculine is gay. Do you see where I draw my conclusions from now?

I totally accept that you are conveying to us a reasonably accurate summary of your experiences however it is your reasoning and the subsequent conclusions you have drawn that are incorrect.

And remember masculine does not mean butch and tough and never cry and "manly" handshakes, it simply means characteristics that are generally associated with men, and if the majority of gay men are as you have concluded then their behaviour is every bit as masculine as (I am assuming) yours is.

 

[Quad4_72]

From what you have described so far the behaviour that you have perceived to be indicative of gay men are not feminine behaviour, they are just another form of masculine behaviour (and even that is really a generalisation too far).

I disagree. The way camp gays act relate much more to women then is does to men.

 

[Quad4_72]

How do you know that some of them were not? Some prefer to stay in the closet.

They all dated women, were married to women, engaged to women, etc. The ones who were single were actively seeking out women. Perhaps it was all a front for a couple of them, but I find that doubtful.

 

[dafydd]

I have lived in Texas, Oregon, Utah, Kentucky, and Georgia. Is there a gay state that I should live in to meet all of these millions of gay men who act masculine?

No,but the cultural climate in those States would induce one to keep quiet about it. As I said,come to Europe,there are lots of masculine gay men here. I recently found out that the brother of a friend of mine who I have known for three years and who is a big masculine rugby player has just moved into a flat in London with his boyfriend. I saw the two of them at a party last summer,and I thought that they were just mates. Not a sign of feminine behaviour. Your attempt to tar all gays with the same brush will not work. The States you mentioned are hardly known for their liberal,tolerant views. Travel abroad,it broadens the mind.

 

[Darat]

I have lived in Texas, Oregon, Utah, Kentucky, and Georgia. Is there a gay state that I should live in to meet all of these millions of gay men who act masculine?

I would suggest trying Texas, Oregon, Utah, Kentucky, or Georgia...

 

[dafydd]

They all dated women, were married to women, engaged to women, etc. The ones who were single were actively seeking out women. Perhaps it was all a front for a couple of them, but I find that doubtful.

Almost certainly some of them were bi but kept quiet about it.

 

[Quad4_72]

As a gay man I've meet some effeminate Gay men and I've meet effeminate straight men. From my own experience I would say that effeminate straight men outnumber effeminate Gay men. As for most Gay men being obviously effeminate well since the great majority of Gay men I've known are not obviously effeminate at all I think that is just wrong to assume that Gay men are in general effeminate. After all mnay of the Gay men I've known have been in the Army and one was a semi-pro football player. you do realize that the Gay men you knew, which seems to be the party circuit crowd and those associated with things like ballroom dancing have their own "culture" and when they associate with each other they "camp it up". It is a fact that an aspect of Gay culture that many Gay men when together in numbers "camp" or you might say act effeminate and when not in that situation don't act quite so effeminate at all. The overwhelming majority of the Gay men I've known in my life when they came out as Gay their friends and relatives had not a single suspicion and those that did did so mainly because X was not interested in dating the opposite sex not because they acted effeminate or "Gay".

Perhaps this is true. From my personal experience though, it simply is not. Perhaps I have just lived in the wrong places. My sample sizes seem to be pretty significant though.

 

[Quad4_72]

No,but the cultural climate in those States would induce one to keep quiet about it. As I said,come to Europe,there are lots of masculine gay men here. I recently found out that the brother of a friend of mine who I have known for three years and who is a big masculine rugby player has just moved into a flat in London with his boyfriend. I saw the two of them at a party last summer,and I thought that they were just mates. Not a sign of feminine behaviour. Your attempt to tar all gays with the same brush will not work. The States you mentioned are hardly known for their liberal,tolerant views. Travel abroad,it broadens the mind.

I have no idea how you guys roll in Europe, but I don't think it really applies to the United States.

 

[dafydd]

I would suggest trying Texas, Oregon, Utah, Kentucky, or Georgia...

Perhaps quad would like them to wear a big sign saying I am a beer swilling,rodeo watching,football afficionado,churchgoer,country fan and all round good ole boy but surprise,surprise,I'm gay (or bi),but I can't say it because the folks around here believe that being gay is an abomination in the sight of the lord.

 

[Quad4_72]

I totally accept that you are conveying to us a reasonably accurate summary of your experiences however it is your reasoning and the subsequent conclusions you have drawn that are incorrect.

And remember masculine does not mean butch and tough and never cry and "manly" handshakes, it simply means characteristics that are generally associated with men, and if the majority of gay men are as you have concluded then their behaviour is every bit as masculine as (I am assuming) yours is.

Are you proposing that camp behavior relates more to masculinity then it does to femininity?

 

[Quad4_72]

I would suggest trying Texas, Oregon, Utah, Kentucky, or Georgia...

I tried that already. What are you getting at Darat?

 

[dafydd]

I have no idea how you guys roll in Europe, but I don't think it really applies to the United States.

One always did know that social mores were a little antediluvian in the southern colonies. The last thing I would want to know about a person is what they get up to in bed,it's private and none of my business.

 

[Quad4_72]

Almost certainly some of them were bi but kept quiet about it.

How do you figure? What exactly do you base that on?

 

[dafydd]

Are you proposing that camp behavior relates more to masculinity then it does to femininity?

It relates to the person being camp. That's it.

 

[Marduk]

I think you are stretching to say that every branch of the military is "crawling" with gays. I know all of my men very personally. None of them are gay, except possibly one. He is questionable (He was caught with a dude sleeping in his bed in the barracks and a tube of anal lube on the nightstand. He was not in the bed with him, but I think you can draw your own conclusions).

WHAT,
You haven't had him up before a Kangaroo court yet
WHY ARE YOU WAITING!!!!

 

[dafydd]

How do you figure? What exactly do you base that on?

Experience. It's on the cards. Did all of them tell you everything about their private lives?

 

[dafydd]

I tried that already. What are you getting at Darat?

That there are lots of rugged,masculine types in those states who are gay or bi but keep it hid because of rampant homophobia.

 

[Pacal]

This is just simply wishful thinking, as there are some pretty defined gender lines in society along with a difference in the way most straight men act as opposed to most gay men.

The only wishful thinking is from you. The fact is most Gay men don't act much differently from other men. If you mean to say that on average Gay men tend to be more effeminate than straight men than that is an arguable position. But your idea that most Gay men are obviously "Gay" is absurd to the point of sillness.

You seem to forget that "masculinity" and "feminity" not polar opposites but a continuim if Gay men on average are more towards the "feminine" end that doesn't mean that most Gay men are obviously "Gay". You also seem to forget about the large number of Straight men who are effeminate or "feminine".

Oh and you might want to read the following Ross, Michael W., Editor, Homosexuality, Masculinity & Feminity, Harrington park Press, New York, 1985, Pillard, Richard C., Masculinity and Feminity in Homosexuality, in Homosexuality, Sage Pub.,New York, 1991.

Oh and you might want to google the phrase Gay Redneck.