Drag Shows!!

[Thermal]

Right, but again, the show wasn't intended for kiddies. It was intended to be a rated R\MA show for those with the maturity to attend. This was stated in multiple places and, as you pointed out, left out in many places; however, it was stated at the door as well. Before people walked in they were told and I would bet that the parents of the individual in question were told with even more clarity.

Ok. Do we know what the parents were actually told? The ad said that the performers had "potty mouths". I'm not sure that effectively conveys a bearded man flashing his underwear singing "**** me all night". I feel like "potty mouths" may have been understating things a bit?

I'm sure it won't be surprising to you when I say, I don't find these two examples equivalent. In your scenario the individual wasn't invited, it wasn't an audience intended for him, and it would be completely and entirely unsolicited. A school is also not a venue to do such things. In the actual event it was all of those things. That was the point of the show. It was by design. The people rehearsed, it was an act that many people attended to see exactly the actions they saw.

Yes, which is why I said it was not an exact comparison, and that it was only to show how close this performance was to the line where we should be genuinely concerned.

I'm glad you brought that up. You see all of those things in public, right? Do children as young as 3 see that as well? Are the cops called? Are there protestors there? Are organizations forming and sending out requests to stop such action? Are these really the same? You're kind of making the point that lewdness, mostly naked bodies, and the like are things kids run into pretty regularly, at least where you're at. That's definitely not the case where I am, but we live in vastly different climates.

If any of the lasses I refer to began gyrating their pelvises at children singing "my pussy goog enough to eat", you could bet your sequined Speedo that the police would be all over it.

I don't really pay attention or care, if I'm being honest. My knowledge of women's underwear starts and stops at "wear what you want, I don't want to hear about it.". Other people's underwear grosses me out, wife included. That's why I don't do other people's laundry.

Fair enough. I did my kids laundry when they were young, and do my wife's on occasion, but fair enough. My point was that boy shorts are pretty much normal attire nowadays, and not really in the same league as a bearded man exposing his tidy whiteys to children, which is still considered a bit gauche.

I wasn't comparing the two. I was saying that they dance erotically in small amounts of clothing in front of a large amount of children every single day with not even a shoulder shrug from most people.

I've seen a few performances with the same exact moves pole dancers and strippers use. The only difference is the amount of clothing.

Yeah, hip hop dancing is widely accepted for children that, IMO, are too young to be involved in it. My girl's dance studio offered a class in it that was too blatantly sexual for pre-teens Open and healthy sexuality is one thing, but eight year olds gyrating like the Heat cheerleaders is prob not the best thing.

 

[JoeMorgue]

//Total hijack//

The fact that, to the best of my knowledge, we don't have Drag Queen themed nights at the Drag Strip, people in sparkling dresses and big wigs doing the 1/4 mile in Nitro Burning Dragsters and... I mean we have failed as a species.

The Drag Strip. I mean come on people the jokes right themselves!

 

[Upchurch]

I love Pol posters. Since you're down to repeating and requoting yourself, while handwaving away everything I pose, we can probably call it a day. Thanks.

I'm not handwaving away everything you are saying. I'm saying that the risk-benefit ratio is pretty damn low. As tyr_13 pointed out, we're talking about ages 3-10. I think your "clown interpretation" is pretty low by the ages of 5-6 and non-existent by 7. For reference, one my son's classmates came out as trans in the 3rd grade, so about 8 or 9 years old.* So, they clearly have the capacity to understand what they are seeing.

The potential benefits, however, include a decline in bigotry, bullying, and self-harm for non-cis kids and teens.


ETA: * Now that I think about it, that kid was showing signs of gender dysphoria as early as 1st grade, IIRC.

 

[gnome]

Surely you see that we're raising a generation of weakling snowflakes when bullying and self-harm are no longer endemic to childhood? /s

 

[Thermal]

I'm not handwaving away everything you are saying. I'm saying that the risk-benefit ratio is pretty damn low. As tyr_13 pointed out, we're talking about ages 3-10. I think your "clown interpretation" is pretty low by the ages of 5-6 and non-existent by 7. For reference, one my son's classmates came out as trans in the 3rd grade, so about 8 or 9 years old. So, they clearly have the capacity to understand what they are seeing.*

And as I pointed out long ago, the clips we've seen of Story Hours have shown mostly infants to maaaaaybe four year olds, which is pretty normal for story readings. One of my nieces is 11 now. It's been a long time since she had story hour with toddlers. The level of the stories themselves is more than a little disparate.

The potential benefits, however, include a decline in bigotry, bullying, and self-harm for non-cis kids and teens.


ETA: * Now that I think about it, that kid was showing signs of gender dysphoria as early as 1st grade, IIRC.

My fam was like 100% positive that one of my nephews would be gay or trans. No interest in "guy" stuff as a boy, more interested in dolls and dress up. His parents were fully accepting of this and didn't try to "reeducate" him in any way. He's a bearded, boring CisHet adult now.

Point obviously being that a one hour drag storytime is pretty negligible, development -wise. The kids will likely get their bigotry (or hopefully lack thereof) from a variety of influences. This one that they will assuredly forget and/or not understand is pretty much not going to be their definitive moment. If the only time they see an atypical gender presentation is in this one story hour, where they are treated as something different from the kids day-to-day experience, then might the kids start to think of atypical people as....different?

You and others seem to think I am against this. Not really. I'm just not convinced that it's a great idea, and that others do (for +/- no reason) leads me to believe that this is more about appearing trendy than actual concern for the child.

 

[gnome]

You and others seem to think I am against this. Not really. I'm just not convinced that it's a great idea, and that others do (for +/- no reason) leads me to believe that this is more about appearing trendy than actual concern for the child.

This here is what I would love us to move away from as a default assumption. It may be that people are mistaken about what will benefit a child, but can we presume people make decisions for reasons other than "Trendiness"? How much is that a part of your decision making process? Why are people so quick to presume that of others? I think it is because it is easier than putting yourself in their shoes and trying to understand their point of view.

Can't we all just DISAGREE without figuring the other person is just a flake?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Okay fine.

It's trendy. We're all just doing it because it's trendy. That's our one and only sole motivation. Call all of us "Mr. Trendy McTrendyson, 3rd Earl of Trendytown."

We're still on the correct side here.

That's why every argument here is insufferable. The wrong side isn't right if they are right.

So what we're supposed to be bigots because we don't want to be trendy?

This is where the "I don't understand the difference between thinking for myself and just being a contrarian" stops being just annoying and become outright malicious.

 

[Thermal]

Can't we all just DISAGREE without figuring the other person is just a flake?

This particular shoe fits a lot of feet here, doesn't it? Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[Upchurch]

My fam was like 100% positive that one of my nephews would be gay or trans. No interest in "guy" stuff as a boy, more interested in dolls and dress up. His parents were fully accepting of this and didn't try to "reeducate" him in any way. He's a bearded, boring CisHet adult now.

Point obviously being that a one hour drag storytime is pretty negligible, development -wise.

Not that obvious. How does that story lead to your described point? No one is suggesting that participating in stereotypical girl activities as a child will make you more girl-like as an adult.

Likewise, just to be clear, the purpose of DSH isn't to make children non-cis.

The kids will likely get their bigotry (or hopefully lack thereof) from a variety of influences. This one that they will assuredly forget and/or not understand is pretty much not going to be their definitive moment. If the only time they see an atypical gender presentation is in this one story hour, where they are treated as something different from the kids day-to-day experience, then might the kids start to think of atypical people as....different?

As I've already said, the DSH is not meant to be a one-and-done lesson in diversity. As I've already said, it is a starting point.

...this is more about appearing trendy than actual concern for the child.

Weird. I've been thinking the same thing for a while now.

 

[Thermal]

"We are going to encourage understanding gender diversity in children too young to fathom it by having men in dresses read them stories!"

"Um...is that a thing that like...makes sense?"

"Proudly wrong! 2+2! See that means I'm right because I say 2+2!"

Wtf is with this place?

 

[Upchurch]

"We are going to encourage understanding gender diversity in children too young to fathom it by having men in dresses read them stories!"
"Um...is that a thing that like...makes sense?"

"Proudly wrong! 2+2! See that means I'm right because I say 2+2!"

Wtf is with this place?

The thing with this place is that we are not actually you're straw men. When you'd care to actually join the conversation, please feel free.

 

[Thermal]

The thing with this place is that we are not actually you're straw men. When you'd care to actually join the conversation, please feel free.

Oh for Christs sake, yes you have, and in so many words. If we are going to get into fine point pedantic quibbling it's a sailed ship anyway.

I hope you guys get a new Warp soon because you're clearly jonesing

 

[arthwollipot]

Viva la Skepticism!

I find this extremely ironic coming from someone who is leaning so heavily into the strawman, slippery slope, false generalisation and well-poisoning fallacies. I know, I know. Argument by naming logical fallacies. But still.

[imgw=400]https://i.imgur.com/Jm0RRBd.jpg[/imgw]

 

[Robin]

"Men in dresses and children seem like an odd pairing. Is there some kind of reason for this?"

Because it's fun for the kids.

And as I have pointed several times it is only an odd pairing from your own cultural perspective. From mine it is common, almost clichéd to have men in dressed entertaining children via pantomime.

Your cultural perspective isn't the world. It's not even the mainstream.

 

[Robin]

In case anyone hasn't noticed, hating on drag queens is extremely trendy on the right at the moment.

Really trendy. All around the world.

However I'm not accusing anyone here of being trendy.

Just of being unclear about what the actual objections are to children having stories told to them by drag queens with the consent of their parents or guardians and with parents or guardians present.

 

[Robin]

Incidentally my youngest went to a series of sessions where a man in a dress read stories to a group of children. The man belonged to an organisation, that organised and hosted the event, with a decades long history of normalised, institutionalised child rape and even murder.

The organisation appears to be, on the whole, unapologetic about this history.

Somehow this kind of thing passed without comment.

 

[arthwollipot]

A cassock is not a dress. It's more like an ankle-length coat.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Surely you see that we're raising a generation of weakling snowflakes when bullying and self-harm are no longer endemic to childhood? /s

I used to say that would be how to do me out of a job...

Some days I would imagine what it might be like if there was no need for someone such as me doing overdose assessments or working with self-harming adolescents driven to it by bullying of all types.

 

[Upchurch]

I used to say that would be how to do me out of a job...

Some days I would imagine what it might be like if there was no need for someone such as me doing overdose assessments or working with self-harming adolescents driven to it by bullying of all types.

No offense, but I would love for you to be laid off due to lack of demand.

 

[Darat]

A cassock is not a dress. It's more like an ankle-length coat.

A distinction that every 3 year old can make....