Dr. Sheikh will prove homoeopathy works or quit!

[steenkh]

If you are doing this for your own edification and not the Randi million, then obviously it is up to you to find patients. However, don't expect anyone here to believe your results unless you have your work peer-reviewed by legitimate medical journals.

That is partly right. If Dr. A Sheikh decides to quit homoeopathy after a negative result, I think we will believe the results and even congratulate him on his integrity.

If he gets a positive result, I think we should not dismiss it out of hand, unless we have reason to doubt his honesty. We would of course scrutinise his protocols and report very carefully, looking for flaws, but the most obvious course would be to advise him to repeat the experiment for the JREF million.

Publishment in a recognised, peer-reviewed medical journal is not easy to get if you are not a recognised medical doctor or researcher, and I think it would be wrong to demand something that we know is next to impossible. I would certainly not like to go to record as one who has rejected a coming Nobel laureate!

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

So, any testing will have to be performed by yourself. If you do not regularly encounter camphor patients that could be willing to participate in a test, perhaps you test some other remedy where it will be easier for you to find suitable patients?

Sir with my humble request, try to follow the point, we have to carry out to prove http://www.abchomeopathy.com/r.php/Camph. "camphor proving symptoms" through DBT. Do you Agree?

Please again please pick this point we are going to prove "symptoms of camphor", at my clinic only one patient might visit in a month. On that patient we can verify or prove only one symptom of the camphor (or any other remedy of homeopathy), then I have to wait for another month and it is possible to see two patients in a month but this is also possible that no camphor patient visit at my clinic within two months.

Ok, leave camphor and select anyother remedy but again where are the patients? Whatever you will suggest to solve this problem, in my humble campacity I am ready to follow it. Even I am ready to travel to visit different clinic of my city but I could find five to six patients of camphor and all of them have different symptoms of camphor then what I have to do? We can only conduct DBT on single symptom as mentioned at http://www.abchomeopathy.com/r.php/Camph.

Please advice!

 

[Psiload]

I said send camphor patients. Where I could search for camphor patients? Gather some camphor patients for me. I don't have camphor patients yet. I am seriously thinking to quit homeopathy if DBT fails over homeopathic remedies.

There are much easier ways to "prove" homeopathy by DBT other than rounding up a bunch of "camphor patients"... whatever they are.

Isn't there some sort of homeopathic "remedy" which will cause a consistent effect, aggravation, result... in anyone who takes it? Just pick a remedy which you believe will have some detectable effect on a person, or yourself for that matter. Administer that remedy 50/50 alongside a batch of unpotentiated stock solvent, or blank pill. Do this blinded, and to a statistically significant level of sucess in indentifying the "active" remedy, and you win the prize... What does 1 million bucks come translate to in ruppees?

It's really that simple. No mass recruiting of camphor patients required.

FYI... the fact that this simple test has NEVER, EVER been successfully accomplished by ANY homeopath should really tell you something...

if you're willing to listen.

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Camphor symptoms: MIND

mind; behaviour; shrieking;
insecure, uncertain, scared; anxiety;
insecure, uncertain, scared; anxiety; during chill; ;
insecure, uncertain, scared; fear; night; ;
restlessness, nervousness;
HEAD

head; pulsating; back of head (occiput); standing;

EYE

eye; sparkling;

NOSE

nose; coldness;
pointed;

FACE

face; coldness; cholera;
coldness; in hydrocephalus (water on the brain: headache, drowsiness, vomiting);
expression; anxious;
lips; discoloration; bluish;
lips; upper lip pulled up, exposing teeth;
perspiration;
perspiration; cold;
skin; discoloration; bluish;
skin; discoloration; pale;
skin; discoloration; pale; during chill; ;
sunken;

MOUTH

mouth; sensation of coldness; tongue; ;
cold breath;
dryness; tongue; ;
tongue; cold tongue;
tongue; flabby;
tongue; trembling;

ABDOMEN

abdomen; bladder; urging to urinate (unhealthy desire);
kidneys; suppression of urine; from suppressed gonorrhoea;
stomach; coldness;

RECTUM

rectum; cholera;
diarrhoea; hot weather; ;

STOOL

stool; copious;
watery; like rice water;

URINE

urine; burning (includes hot);
colour; greenish;

GENITALS

genitals; male; sexual passion; suppressed;
female; sexual intercourse; desire increased;
urethra (urinary part of genitals); pain; burning;
urethra (urinary part of genitals); pain; burning; during urination; ;

RESPIRATION

respiration; asphyxia; in new-born infant; ;

CHEST

chest; anxiety; region of heart; ;
congestion;

EXTREMITIES, LIMBS

extremities, limbs; coldness;
coldness; with diarrhoea;
coldness; yet warm bed unbearable;
coldness; upper limbs; hands; ;
coldness; lower limbs; foot; icy cold;

SLEEP

sleep; sleeplessness, insomnia; coverings are warm though limbs are cold;

CHILL

chill; chilliness (see also whole body; temperature);
external; ;
external; as in cholera;
icy coldness of the body;
with fever, but chill predominating;
shaking, shivering, rigors;
uncovering, undressing;

FEVER

fever; internal heat; with external chill;
when walking in open air; ;

PERSPIRATION

perspiration; clammy;
cold;

SKIN

skin; coldness;
coldness; icy;

INJURIES AND ACCIDENTS

injuries and accidents; shock from injury;

GENERALITIES

generalities; general physical anxiety;
blood vessels; blue discoloration (from lack of oxygen in blood);
collapse;
collapse; after diarrhoea; ;
after measles; ;
pain; sore, bruised; internally; ;
pulse; imperceptible; almost;
pulse; small;
pulse; weak;
suppression of sexual desire;
temperature (felt and effects of temperature); cold feeling; lack of vital heat;
temperature (felt and effects of temperature); cold air;
weakness (see lethargic, weariness); from perspiration;

(in above proving you can only prove typical symptoms of camphor other are general symptoms of all remedies.)

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

steenkh advice is sensible

__________________
According to the Skeptics Point of View, modern medical drugs can have a physiological effect at 1x and can be used to treat certain diseases at 1x. But the same medical drugs in homeopathy cannot show any physiological effect in 1x. Neither it cannot bring any physiological change in the body nor it can treat any disease. After knowing the opinion of skeptics, can any one discuss with them on scientific ground? (Remember, many medical drugs are same in both Homeopathy and Allopathic systems)

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

psiload, we have crossed that step now we are moving to some more positive steps to complete the task, don't beat the drum behind us.

 

[Mojo]

As I've already said, if you can't carry out the protocol proposed here, you need to devise your own protocol which you can carry out using the resources available to you.

Try Psiload's suggestion:

Just pick a remedy which you believe will have some detectable effect on a person, or yourself for that matter. Administer that remedy 50/50 alongside a batch of unpotentiated stock solvent, or blank pill. Do this blinded, and to a statistically significant level of sucess in indentifying the "active" remedy

 

[Almo]

You guys wouldn't really trust a study done by him, would you?

 

[steenkh]

I really do not see why you cannot choose some other remedy than camphor - unless it is the only remedy that you can test ethically without endagering your patients.

I admit that one camphor patient in a month is a bit too few, but even so, there is no obligation that all the patients have to come in a short time. All you need to do is having two sets of remedy prepared: a normal set and a set of pure solvent (placebo), both in identical glasses. Then have somebody else that is not connected to your clinic in any way code the glasses and mix them randomly, keeping the code sealed where you cannot inspect it. Then use the remedy normally (but inform your patients of the test; if they object to the test, you must have a set of normal uncoded remedy for those patients that will not be part of your test).

Now, if you only have a camphor patient once a month, it could take you 30 months to perform the test (or more if some patients opt out), but if you can reach more patients, the test could be faster.

Only after all 30 (or 20 patients if you drop the group that get no treatment at all) have been evaluated, do you contact the person holding the code. Ideally, somebody else should evaluate the results (triple blind testing) but you can also do it yourself.

If you choose something entirely different than curing symptoms, you might find easier going. If you choose something that is crucial to your understanding of homoeopathy, like perhaps proving symptoms, you could just ask a number of people, such as cured patients if they will participate, and so you could reach the desired number much faster.

 

[steenkh]

You guys wouldn't really trust a study done by him, would you?

Apart from possible misunderstandings (admittedly, he has a blind spot about homoeopathy), I have not seen any evidence that he is dishonest.

Homoeopaths have exactly the same reaction when skeptics take loads of homoeopathic medicine to show that there is no effect: the homoeopaths are quick to disbelieve the results. Why should we behave in the same way?

 

[Rolfe]

How about the protocol I suggested in a different thread?

So, purely hypothetical proposal. Both myself and the JREF witness the preparation by independent manufacturers of the necessary homoeopathic remedies and "sham" preparations, and the appropriate labelling, and their delivery to an independent and mutually trusted lawyer.

The lawyer agrees to send or deliver to me, one at a time and on request, either the remedy I ask for, or a sham. I take my time and decide whether I got the requested remedy or not (any way I please), and notify another trusted third party, who does nothing but keep a record of my decisions. I then notify the lawyer that I'm ready for the next one, and he sends it to me. And so on.

We do this, say, 15 times (which I think would allow for sufficient statistical power). After I have delivered my 15 decisions, the lawyer who was sending out the material compares notes with the person recording my decisions, and the number of correct calls counted. If this makes it to a less than 1 in 1,000 chance that I was guessing, the preliminary phase has been passed.

Naturally, I pay all professional fees accrued by this process.

I'm asking because sometimes homoeopaths complain that it's impossible to satisfy the demands of the challenge, and it would be nice to have a simple and practical protocol that (probably, I'm not asking for guarantees here) meets the requirements.

This one lets them pick the remedy they think they can identify according to what volunteers they can scare up with what symptoms, or "prove" it themselves or on other volunteers or anything, and it lets them take their time about deciding whether the effect is there, without anyone being locked up in a room or having to take a long holiday or provide a number of people with the same disease simultaneously.

I think it's fair, I think it's secure, and I think it would work. And frankly, if I believed in homoeopathy I'd be rushing to get my application in quick before somebody beat me to it. The fact that they're all so coy and can never agree on what they think they can do says to me as clearly as anything that they know they can't do anything.

Rolfe.

 

[Mojo]

Apart from possible misunderstandings (admittedly, he has a blind spot about homoeopathy), I have not seen any evidence that he is dishonest.

How about the porkie in his sig?

 

[Rolfe]

How about the whole "woman4ya" affair? He's as straight as a bent corkscrew.

Rolfe.

 

[Almo]

Homoeopaths have exactly the same reaction when skeptics take loads of homoeopathic medicine to show that there is no effect: the homoeopaths are quick to disbelieve the results. Why should we behave in the same way?

Excellent point.

 

[steenkh]

How about the porkie in his sig?

I tend to think that he believes it himself, but that he is too lazy or unable to use a search engine to find the original quotes. Besides, he would search in vain, because he only remembers his own misconceptions of the quotes.

Anyway, I agree, he would seem more serious if he changed his sig or if he produced the evidence of the quotes.

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

steen and others you are not reading my entire posts. I said, I have no objection in selecting anyother remedy. Please read my posts again.

 

[Nucular]

Why not simply advertise for volunteers? You'll find there are a great many people out there with 'camphor' (anxiety) symptoms who haven't sought any kind of help yet.

It might be an idea to check you're not breaking the laws of your country by conducting illegal medical research, though.

But if you check that, and design maybe a poster with all relevant information on it, you might get more people who fit the bill. Put it outside your clinic, or wherever.

Just a thought.

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

good idea! I have no objection. Who will be the sponsor?

 

[Rolfe]

What do you mean, sponsor?

Rolfe.

 

[steenkh]

We are not sponsoring anything. We already know the result of this test: after all the Lancet report summarised loads of such tests. You are the one who believes that there is an affect, and you should make the test to satisfy yourself - or prepare yourself for grabbing the JREF million.

We can help with the protocol, nothing more. We do not find test persons for you, neither do we sponsor anything.