Dr. Sheikh will prove homoeopathy works or quit!

[TobiasTheViking]

About as addicted as they come, pal.

Rolfe.

O.O

 

[Nucular]

Actually, I think our friend the Sheikh is objecting to the other quote.

If medicine all came down to the numbers, and Sheikh et al. have not even demonstrated that they can count, let alone understand where the numbers come from in the first place, then of course they're going to disagree.

"I'll remove my sig saying that sceptics think the moon is made of sausages when it is in fact made of cheese, if you stop offending my sensibilities by asking me to understand complicated constructs like statistics when all I want to do is make a fast buck from some uneducated unfortunates."

... is perhaps what he means

 

[Z]

'Sat you, Rolfe? Somehow, I pictured you as more hirsute, with a bulbuous nose and long, floppy ears...

Nice costume, though.

 

[Tricky]

'Sat you, Rolfe? Somehow, I pictured you as more hirsute, with a bulbuous nose and long, floppy ears...

Nice costume, though.

I believe you're thinking of Rowlf

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

I can't see anything untrue in Rolfe's signature. Can you be a bit more specific as to what you think is a lie?

where snoopy did it? prove it. I know snoopy she is very kind and highly educated then you.

also provide link at hpathy.

 

[ReFLeX]

scroll pages of nch and randi forums and also hpathy and otherhealth.

Your signature is still just argument by assertion.

Mine signature is appearing for the last two months or so? why are you objecting today?

This is the first time I've seen you.

Why you don't have objection on rolfe signature. it is pure lie.

Well, because quoting someone can't really be a lie. It can be a misquote. Here is the post in original context. I found it in about 2 minutes.

Posted: 04 July 04 at 16:48 | IP Logged

To give Rolfe his due...

ETA: That's the fifth post from the bottom.

And note: Rolfe has already said it was hypothetical, (not a real case).

 

[Rolfe]

Hey, how did you find that? I thought the original had fallen to Stalin's airbrush.

Rolfe.

 

[dogbite666]

Dr. A Sheikh,

are you going to continue to obfuscate or get on with defining a test protocol?

First of all you say:

We will prove it with double blind test. if we will fail then we will leave homeopathic practice for ever.

Then you refuse to define your own protocol:

We are the most honest in the sense that you design db protocol for us. The choice is yours. We will just follow it.

So, I'll do it for you. Earlier I emailed you a simple test protocol concerning your claims with homeopathic Camphor. For everyone else's sake heres what I wrote:

Please tell us how you would control the test you suggested in the thread http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37460&page=29
How would you know if it was the Camphor remedy having an effect on the patient or placebo, or even if their condition changed by chance?

If I were to carry out this test I would take 3 groups. One group would be given a homeopathic remedy, one a placebo and one group is given nothing. I would ensure that the patients and the people prescribing the homeopathic remedy and judging the results didnt know which patients belonged to which group.

If homeopathic Camphor remdy is effective in treating patients with the ailments you described then the group which were given the remedy will show greater improvments than the other 2 groups. DO YOU AGREE Dr. A Sheikh???

Now then Dr. A Sheikh, Do you agree that the protocol I have described would be a suffcient test? Do you agree to stand by your words and take a test using the protocol I have described and if this test proved that homeopathic camphor didnt work would you give up your practice? Are you going to do anything you say Dr. A Sheikh? or are you going to continually make claims then run away?

Its time to put up or shut up Dr. A Sheikh!

 

[ReFLeX]

Hey, how did you find that? I thought the original had fallen to Stalin's airbrush.

Rolfe.

I googled hpathy, then clicked on hpathy.com and then the forum link. Then I tried to figure out what had happened. Realizing the problem, I closed the giant ad then I searched for "Rolfe" and the thread was 10 or 15 lines down.

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Dr. A Sheikh,

are you going to continue to obfuscate or get on with defining a test protocol?

First of all you say:



Then you refuse to define your own protocol:



So, I'll do it for you. Earlier I emailed you a simple test protocol concerning your claims with homeopathic Camphor. For everyone else's sake heres what I wrote:



Now then Dr. A Sheikh, Do you agree that the protocol I have described would be a suffcient test? Do you agree to stand by your words and take a test using the protocol I have described and if this test proved that homeopathic camphor didnt work would you give up your practice? Are you going to do anything you say Dr. A Sheikh? or are you going to continually make claims then run away?

Its time to put up or shut up Dr. A Sheikh!

I am ready to use that protocol. Now where are the camphor patients? I am ready to carryout DBT.

 

[Mojo]

Now where are the camphor patients?

Don't you have any patients, "doctor"?

Remember, you are the person who has promised to prove that homoeopathy works in a double blind test. It's up to you to do it.

ETA: Or, as promised, permanently quit practising homoeopathy.

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

I said send camphor patients. Where I could search for camphor patients? Gather some camphor patients for me. I don't have camphor patients yet. I am seriously thinking to quit homeopathy if DBT fails over homeopathic remedies.

 

[dogbite666]

I am ready to use that protocol. Now where are the camphor patients? I am ready to carryout DBT.

Are you kidding? First you ask me to design a protocol for you to prove your claim, now you want me to carry it out for you!!!!!

You make the claim, you prove it! surley you have some patients, your are a 'doctor'! if you apply for the JREF challenge with the protocol I suggested I'm sure they'll have someone in Pakistan come and vist you and your patients in your own practice.

 

[steenkh]

OK, you are a brave man, Sheikh. But as you well know, there are serious logistic obstacles that prevent us from helping you: Most of us are not practising doctors, and we have no access to a base of patients tthat may be willing to participate in a test. Even if we were, there would be the problem that you live in Pakistan, and most of us do not. And last but not least, if we supplied the patients, you could afterwards claim that we had supplied you with the wrong type of patients.

So, any testing will have to be performed by yourself. If you do not regularly encounter camphor patients that could be willing to participate in a test, perhaps you test some other remedy where it will be easier for you to find suitable patients?

 

[Tricky]

I said send camphor patients. Where I could search for camphor patients? Gather some camphor patients for me. I don't have camphor patients yet. I am seriously thinking to quit homeopathy if DBT fails over homeopathic remedies.

If you're planning to apply for the Randi million, you might want to read this part:

5.4. Who pays for my expenses, and why?
You do. It's spelled out in the Challenge rules. Remember that your position in the Challenge is that of defendant. But it's also important to realize that there is an important difference between this and a court of law: you are not innocent until proven guilty. Rather, you are normal until proven paranormal, and it is up to you to prove your paranormality. This means that you have to pay for travel, you have to pay to build any devices you want to demonstrate, and so forth. All the ingredients required in proving your claim are yours and yours alone. The JREF will under no circumstances incur such costs.
5.5. Who pays for the JREF's expenses, and why? Again, you do, and again, it's spelled out in the Challenge rules. The reason is that the JREF doesn't see any reason for it to spend any money to help you defend yourself. However, all observers work on a volunteer basis, so no JREF associate or investigator will present you with an expense bill following testing. The JREF will not surprise you with such added costs. You are expected to arrive at testing with everything you need, and it is your job to make the necessary provisions beforehand. The JREF will in no way assist you in these matters.

JREF is under no obligation to provide patients for you to test. Thats one reason why you might consider trying some other way of differentiating the homeopathic solution from the inert solution. The obvious way would be to test if you can detect the active ingredient. If you insist on a medical test, you'll probably have to work with some medical facility to provide patients, and it won't be free. Perhaps you could find some university to provide a research grant. Sorry, but that's the way medicine works. That's why being a quack has such appeal: The up-front expenses are few.

If you are doing this for your own edification and not the Randi million, then obviously it is up to you to find patients. However, don't expect anyone here to believe your results unless you have your work peer-reviewed by legitimate medical journals.

 

[ReFLeX]

I am seriously thinking to quit homeopathy if DBT fails over homeopathic remedies.

I am seriously thinking you know those studies will never be done to your satisfaction.

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Are you kidding? First you ask me to design a protocol for you to prove your claim, now you want me to carry it out for you!!!!!

You make the claim, you prove it! surley you have some patients, your are a 'doctor'! if you apply for the JREF challenge with the protocol I suggested I'm sure they'll have someone in Pakistan come and vist you and your patients in your own practice.

At the moment, I have no camphor patient. You don't have to carryout the DBT for me. I will do it for myself. Thank you. The problem is for proving camphor symptoms you require few patients almost thirty plus for three groups atleast 10 in each group. From where I could have thirty patients in a row? Please follow this point. If you kindly favour me in finding patients then I will be grateful to you.

 

[Mojo]

You promised to do the test. It's up to you to do the work now.

If you can't do it, you shouldn't have made the promise in the first place.

 

[Mojo]

And if you can't find sufficient patients for this protocol, I suggest that you concentrate on devising a protocol that can be carried out using the resources that you have available.

 

[dogbite666]

At the moment, I have no camphor patient. You don't have to carryout the DBT for me. I will do it for myself. Thank you. The problem is for proving camphor symptoms you require few patients almost thirty plus for three groups atleast 10 in each group. From where I could have thirty patients in a row? Please follow this point. If you kindly favour me in finding patients then I will be grateful to you.

How am I going to help you find 30 patients? I live in the UK not Pakistan. How many patients come you on a daily basis? why dont you use them? they dont have to be Camphor patients, find out what the most common ailment you treat is, then use the same protocol with those patients!!! Jeeeez!