Dowsing will never go away

[hopfen]

Whilst perusing the current edition of the [British] National Trust magazine, I found a credulous article about dowsing, containing lines like
"dowsing, it seems, has many practical, if seldom publicly credited, uses."
and
"the National Trust ... has, unofficially, been putting it to use for some years"
and
"I think you should "believe" a thing first and then discover if it works, rather than initially taking a negative approach."

There's really no hope, is there?

 

[skyhand]

"I think you should "believe" a thing first and then discover if it works, rather than initially taking a negative approach."

This statement sums up woo exactly. It states the mentality of almost all of the believers I have seen. They also believe that negative evidence will be overcome, when we find out how it works. It may take hundreds of years to find out. Science doesn't know everything and eventually science will prove them right.

 

[shuttlt]

I'm happy for the dowsers. If they operate through the National Trust, it's like heritage woo. The National Trusts mission is after all to protect the picturesque and the quaint from progress.

 

[Pixel42]

I naively thought this might be an interesting fact-based article when my copy arrived a couple of months ago, but the sentence "at their [the tools of dowsing] mere mention, minds of a scientific bent snap firmly shut" in the first paragraph soon disillusioned me. From the fact that the words "ideomotor effect" do not occur once in the article, it's clear it's the author's mind that is firmly shut.

 

[shuttlt]

From the fact that the words "ideomotor effect" do not occur once in the article, it's clear it's the author's mind that is firmly shut.

...or fell open and became cluttered with twigs and dry leaves blown in by the wind.

Still... Prince Charles should be happy.

 

[aggle-rithm]

"I think you should "believe" a thing first and then discover if it works, rather than initially taking a negative approach."

This statement sums up woo exactly.

The earliest aviators took this approach. Killed quite a few of them.

 

[aggle-rithm]

I naively thought this might be an interesting fact-based article when my copy arrived a couple of months ago, but the sentence "at their [the tools of dowsing] mere mention, minds of a scientific bent snap firmly shut" in the first paragraph soon disillusioned me. From the fact that the words "ideomotor effect" do not occur once in the article, it's clear it's the author's mind that is firmly shut.

I think there are some things our minds should be firmly shut against. Otherwise we would waste a lot of time and energy going over the same issues again and again.

"Extraordinary claims require an extraordinary crow-bar to open up minds of a scientific bent."

 

[Old Bob]

Just because certain things are not understood and explained as woo to me means that some people are incapable of imbracing anything new. I dowse for many things and it works. The trouble is it seems a bit occult to many, but on the other hand look at the symbols of main stream religion, Christian churchs and cementrys face the east (the rising sun) worship the Son (sun) of god) on Sun-day. End pray with A-men which means A- Mun-Ra the sun God, most churchs are built on a ley line and look at the symbols the Pope carries around? Now when I say dowsing is controled by the dowsers mind, watch someone say "Woo woo rubish" but I bet they go to church and talk to the rafters, thats ok. If I'm looking for a phone cable thats all that will respond, because that is what I'm thinking. I don't feel water or what ever and the same goes for each target. Depth of target be it a water stream or buried pipe again think numbers and feel response.

 

[Twiler]

Just because certain things are not understood and explained as woo to me means that some people are incapable of imbracing anything new. I dowse for many things and it works. The trouble is it seems a bit occult to many, but on the other hand look at the symbols of main stream religion, Christian churchs and cementrys face the east (the rising sun) worship the Son (sun) of god) on Sun-day. End pray with A-men which means A- Mun-Ra the sun God, most churchs are built on a ley line and look at the symbols the Pope carries around? Now when I say dowsing is controled by the dowsers mind, watch someone say "Woo woo rubish" but I bet they go to church and talk to the rafters, thats ok. If I'm looking for a phone cable thats all that will respond, because that is what I'm thinking. I don't feel water or what ever and the same goes for each target. Depth of target be it a water stream or buried pipe again think numbers and feel response.

Have you applied for the Million Dollar Challenge?

 

[prewitt81]

I dowse for many things and it works.

Why has every properly controlled scientific test of dowsing come to the conclusion that it, in fact, does not work? If you're confident in your ability, apply for the $1M prize.

The trouble is it seems a bit occult to many, but on the other hand look at the symbols of main stream religion, Christian churchs and cementrys face the east (the rising sun) worship the Son (sun) of god) on Sun-day. End pray with A-men which means A- Mun-Ra the sun God, most churchs are built on a ley line and look at the symbols the Pope carries around? Now when I say dowsing is controled by the dowsers mind, watch someone say "Woo woo rubish" but I bet they go to church and talk to the rafters, thats ok. If I'm looking for a phone cable thats all that will respond, because that is what I'm thinking. I don't feel water or what ever and the same goes for each target. Depth of target be it a water stream or buried pipe again think numbers and feel response.

There's no etymological evidence for the amen/Amun-ra connection, ley lines are nonsense, and most of the people here who would disagree with you don't go to churches or talk to rafters.

That's a whole lotta wrong.

 

[GeeMack]

Just because certain things are not understood and explained as woo to me means that some people are incapable of imbracing anything new. I dowse for many things and it works. The trouble is it seems a bit occult to many, but on the other hand look at the symbols of main stream religion, Christian churchs and cementrys face the east (the rising sun) worship the Son (sun) of god) on Sun-day. End pray with A-men which means A- Mun-Ra the sun God, most churchs are built on a ley line and look at the symbols the Pope carries around? Now when I say dowsing is controled by the dowsers mind, watch someone say "Woo woo rubish" but I bet they go to church and talk to the rafters, thats ok. If I'm looking for a phone cable thats all that will respond, because that is what I'm thinking. I don't feel water or what ever and the same goes for each target. Depth of target be it a water stream or buried pipe again think numbers and feel response.

Woo woo rubbish.

 

[Old Bob]

Have you applied for the Million Dollar Challenge?

Not in least interested, I have all I want. But happy to pass on the bit I know. Teaching one of my grandkids and she can do it.

 

[shuttlt]

Just because certain things are not understood and explained as woo to me means that some people are incapable of imbracing anything new.

For the millionth time (not your fault) we don't need to understand it, you just need to show that you can do it.

I dowse for many things and it works.

Prove it.

JThe trouble is it seems a bit occult to many, but on the other hand look at the symbols of main stream religion, Christian churchs and cementrys face the east (the rising sun) worship the Son (sun) of god) on Sun-day.

Christians can't prove any of that stuff is anything more than cultural/historical baggage.

End pray with A-men which means A- Mun-Ra the sun God

Does it? Can you provide any evidence for this?

most churchs are built on a ley line and look at the symbols the Pope carries around?

Can the Pope find subterranean water? If not, what is the relevance?

Now when I say dowsing is controled by the dowsers mind, watch someone say "Woo woo rubish" but I bet they go to church and talk to the rafters, thats ok.

I don't go to church, but I'm OK with people who do. If they claimed any special powers based on going to church, I'd think it was rubbish.

If I'm looking for a phone cable thats all that will respond, because that is what I'm thinking.

But you can't do this under controlled conditions. If you can, please allow me to help you spend your million.

I don't feel water or what ever and the same goes for each target.

I don't mind if it's water or phone cables.

Depth of target be it a water stream or buried pipe again think numbers and feel response.

Pick a spot, keep digging, sooner or later you'll strike water. If you can do this better than chance under controlled conditions, please allow me to help you spend your million.

 

[shuttlt]

Not in least interested, I have all I want. But happy to pass on the bit I know. Teaching one of my grandkids and she can do it.

Will she be applying for the million, or does she have all she wants too?

 

[Pixel42]

Just because certain things are not understood ...

There are certainly some things that are not understood, but apparently successful dowsing is not one of them. It's due to the ideomotor effect. This is proved by the fact that, when visual clues to the location of whatever it is that is being dowsed for are removed so that the ideomotor effect is "starved" of information, no dowser ever does any better than would be expected by chance.

 

[shuttlt]

doh

Actually, stuff it. Here's an example of how easily fooled stupid people such as myself can be into thinking something spooky is happening.

I was suddenly struck by having mentioned 'she' in relation to your grandkid in my last post. I no longer recalled you mentioning 'she' and when I skim read you post I got as far as grandkid again and failed to see the word 'she' two words later.

Not that I thought anything spooky was going on, but were I that way inclined, or didn't have the post in front of me to re-recheck....

 

[Ocelot]

Just because certain things are not understood and explained as woo to me means that some people are incapable of imbracing anything new. I dowse for many things and it works. The trouble is it seems a bit occult to many, but on the other hand look at the symbols of main stream religion, Christian churchs and cementrys face the east (the rising sun) worship the Son (sun) of god) on Sun-day. End pray with A-men which means A- Mun-Ra the sun God, most churchs are built on a ley line and look at the symbols the Pope carries around? Now when I say dowsing is controled by the dowsers mind, watch someone say "Woo woo rubish" but I bet they go to church and talk to the rafters, thats ok. If I'm looking for a phone cable thats all that will respond, because that is what I'm thinking. I don't feel water or what ever and the same goes for each target. Depth of target be it a water stream or buried pipe again think numbers and feel response.

I understand dowsing perfectly fine thank you very much. It is indeed controlled though the dowser's mind as you say. This is evidenced by dowsers being able to detect things that their mind knows about but not things in a double blind test.

I'm sure that it's a great way to use the ideomotor effect to tap your subconcious knowledge - finding your lost car keys etc. However there are many people, often accomlished dowsers themselves that are unaware of the way this works or the extent of their unconcious knowledge. Often they are lead to the conclusison that dowsing works through some supernatural means. Time and again testing proves the same thing.

Ideomotor effect and subconcious knowledge - upheld.
Supernatural effect not so much.

 

[EHocking]

I dowse for many things and it works.

No it doesn't and no you can't.

Already discussed with you, here (only a one page thread) and here (last of 177 posts on the subject), and at no time have you been able to come up with any verifiable examples of dowsing working.

Most of your assertions are 3rd hand campfire stories, the details of which you usually misrember anyway.

 

[godless dave]

Just because certain things are not understood and explained as woo to me means that some people are incapable of imbracing anything new. I dowse for many things and it works.

If it works, then you are the first successfuly dowser in history. The reason assume dowsing doesn't work is because it never has. If you can demonstrate that your dowsing does work, I'll change my mind.

 

[Pixel42]

The reason assume dowsing doesn't work is because it never has.

Depends what you mean by "work". I have no doubt that dowsers occasionally find the things they are dowsing for, and more often than would be expected simply by chance, so in that sense it can be said that dowsing "works". I do doubt they are "tapping into ley lines", or whatever woo they attribute their success to. There is nothing paranormal or supernatural about the ideomotor effect, which is why dowsing never "works" when the clues which it needs to produce better than chance results are carefully and methodically eliminated.