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Dowsing will never go away

Marcus said:
The problem is dowsing never works in a controled test, even without the doubters. There are no crowds at a JREF test, just a few people, none close to the dowser while he is testing. If your claim is that dowsing can't work under these conditons, remember that it works perfectly well when clues are still present(the open test).

If you are honest with yourself, you will realize that you have never tried dowsing without any clues that can trigger the ideomotor effect.
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Surely the crowd expects it to work during the open test and not during the controlled test? Hence we only have a sceptical crowd for the part where the dowsing fails. Coincidence???
 
shuttlt said:
Surely the crowd expects it to work during the open test and not during the controlled test? Hence we only have a sceptical crowd for the part where the dowsing fails. Coincidence???
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There is no crowd, only a few people and they are not close to the dowser.It is up to the dowser to say if the conditions are right for a test.
 
Old Bob said:
After reading the posts I feel most are verging on hostile just because of what I do.
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People aren't hostile because of what you do.

People are hostile because you wilfully fail to comprehend what people are trying to politely explain to you.

What you are doing doesn't work the way you think it does.

Your sucess rate isn't what you think it is. Or if it is (or is even close) its not for the reason you think.

There is a simple and easy way for you to test your abilty and learn the truth. If you're not interested in the truth, then that's fine - your perogotive and so forth, but don't expect anyone here to treat your delusions with any respect.
 
Old Bob said:
Not in least interested, I have all I want.
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An old cop out.

If you don't need the money, I know a child burn victim in Oregon near Lincoln City, who could use it for treatments.

Can I tell him you could help, but can't be bothered?



Old Bob said:
But happy to pass on the bit I know. Teaching one of my grandkids and she can do it.
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That's what's in debate.
 
Old Bob said:
The dowsers that take up the million $ bit would be very lucky to overcome the distraction of a disbelieving crowds thoughts
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What crowds?

If crowds are a problem, then when you're negotiating the protocol, stipulate 'no crowds.' Historically, there have never been crowds at skeptical dowsing challenges: only the claimants and their assistants (if any) and two or three observers.

I'm sure a protocol could be worked out whereby even the observers can use cameras to observe remotely.





Old Bob said:
plus one has to be careful not to show off.
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Speak for yourself! (related question: what does 'showing off' while dowsing look like?)





Old Bob said:
The only way I can prove that it works would be to have a bore drilled and the loser pay.
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Whatever you like! That's the great thing about the way JREF has structured the Challenge - you get to contribute your preferences for a protocol that you think would be able to distinguish between having and not having the ability!

If the JREF agrees to bore a holes in the test, are you interested in applying?





Old Bob said:
As for donate and "save the poor children" haven't I heard that before.
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It's as old as the Challenge, since "I don't need the money" is one of the boiler-plate (and lamest) excuses for not accepting the Challenge. From Day One.

BCSkeptics always suggests that any local claimant who wins and sincerely has no imagination whatsoever about how do donate a million dollars to a worthy cause, that they can donate it to BC Children's Hospital.
 
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Gee, it's great to get so many positive posts and to realize that you guys know so much about dowsing. Over and out.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_procedure


  • Over — I have finished talking and I am listening for your reply. Short for "Over to you."
  • Out or Clear — I have finished talking to you and do not expect a reply.
"Over and out" is an incorrect combination, since the two statements contradict each other.

Just so you know.
 
Old Bob said:
Gee, it's great to get so many positive posts and to realize that you guys know so much about dowsing. Over and out.
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Gee, it's great to have someone here that can give such a spirited defense of dowsing, and can give such intelligent responses to the issues.
 
I have to replace some underground sewage pipes in my backyard because they are leaking. Since I don't know what I'm doing, I googled "find underground pipes". It's amazing how many answers involved dowsing. Oddly enough, the water department doesn't use dowsing. They send an electronic signal down the pipe and use a receiver to locate it.
 
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Maybe Old Bob doesn't want to take the challenge because he knows how well he would do as much as we do. Wonder if I'm older than Old Bob? Because in my younger days I did a fair amount of dowsing and had great success. After contact with the JREF, just the Forum mind you, no testing. I set up the test suggested and failed completely. If Old Bob has done the same, then he has chosen to simply believe what he wants. If he hasn't, then he has no real confidence in himself anyway.
 
Old Bob said:
Gee, it's great to get so many positive posts and to realize that you guys know so much about dowsing. Over and out.
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I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I see us as the postive posts, yes: we're the ones trying to figure out how to go forward with the test. You're coming up with all the reasons it's impossible or a bad idea.

And we know about as much about dowsing as anybody else - many of us used to be dowsers. Others have tested dowsers for maybe twenty years now and have heard a hundred different ways it's supposed to work.

We've offered a million dollars to somebody who can demonstrate they can do it - this would vindicate dowsers worldwide and could lead to whole new scientific fields of knowledge that may extend beyond just finding pipes - for example, could it be used to find tumours and contribute to more effective cancer treatments?

I think this is very positive thinking.

I can't understand how "Yeah, I could bring the world all this benefit, but I can't be bothered," is Mr. Positive.
 
Old Bob, it was because of claims like yours that The Million Dollar Challenge was created. It's basically a strong "put up or shut up" statement. It asks the claimant to demonstrate his claim under the fairest conditions possible, where fraud and delusions are ruled out.

It doesn't matter who knows the most about dowsing. Maybe you do, maybe not. Let's find out. Put up or shut up.

If it can be demonstrated, not only will the claimant have shown a doubtful principle to be true (at least once) and made a million people happy, but he will get a million dollars as a bonus. Forget the money, throw it away, gamble it in Vegas, give it to charity, give it back to JREF, send it to me, your choice. Just do it for the principle and the boasting rights. Your name will be in headlines world-wide.

If you don't apply for the Challenge, you have nothing but a crazy fantasy and we have the right to call you on it. Can you say "coward"? So put up or shut up, Dude.
 
Old Bob said:
Just because certain things are not understood and explained as woo to me means that some people are incapable of imbracing anything new.
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Not this again. People have this idea that a "sceptic" is a person who's chosen not to believe anything. Not so. A sceptic is a person who is, what else, sceptical. I didn't even think to believe in giant squid before I saw the photo of one, at which point I was a "believer".

I've got nothing against accepting dowsing is real - the minute I see credible evidence from a reputable source. Let the JREF test you-I have never heard as much as one good excuse why a person shouldn't. (ETA)In fact, thinking about it, I view it as incredibly selfish not to. Lemme explain.

Let's say I go to a far-off land. No one in this far-off land runs. Nobody. Not one. No one is capable of running, no one has seen anyone run, and only a few people believe in running or say they can run. These people are regarded as somewhat stupid, crazy or deluded, because everyone in this far-off kingdom know that running isn't real. OK, thinks I, I can run. I present this fact to the populace, and they tell me to prove it by going down to the park to run a few laps for them in a controlled setting. Now, not only do I know I can run, I also know that demonstrating this to the deluded population will be revolutionizing to them. Once they realize that running is possible, . They'll be able to get around faster. They'll be more efficient and healthy. I'll be doing them a tremendous favour, all by effortlessly doing something I do many times every day. On top of everything, I win a sum equal to one million US dollars!

I say I can't be bothered to do it, and go home. I spend the following week talking about how ridiculous it is that people in the far-off land don't believe in running.

Old Bob, it was because of claims like yours that The Million Dollar Challenge was created. It's basically a strong "put up or shut up" statement. It asks the claimant to demonstrate his claim under the fairest conditions possible, where fraud and delusions are ruled out.
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Indeed.
 
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Old Bob said:
The dowsers that take up the million $ bit would be very lucky to overcome the distraction of a disbelieving crowds thoughts,
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Once again skepticism is proven to be the most powerful force in the universe. If we could just bottle this stuff our energy problem would be solved.

As Marcus pointed out, the dowser's never have any trouble during the open part of the test, even in the presence of skeptics. It's only when they don't know where the object is that they start having problems.


The only way I can prove that it works would be to have a bore drilled and the loser pay.
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No, that just proves that there's water nearly everywhere. Aquifers cover thousands of square miles. It's ridiculous to walk around with a stick and say "Drill over here and you'll find water, but over there you won't."




As for donate and "save the poor children" haven't I heard that before.
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So what if you've heard it before. Why should that stop you?




Many can be trained and what gets me is how neg. this group is.
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Maybe it has to do with the endless parade of charlatans who come through here claiming to have extraordinary abilities, but they never back it up.




Cancer is foisted on us through our own lack of knowledge and when break throughs happen the hero gets treated like a dowser.
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WTF? If someone came up with a cure for cancer we'd all be dancing in the streets.

Steve S.
 
Dowsing

Winning the million would ruin this entire quest for truth. Also, it puts the person claiming a currently unproven theory under ethical scrutiny that may or may not be fair. Futhermore, what I believe about dowsing is not at all supernatural. Anybody can be taught how to do this with five minutes of instruction. My intrusion into this highly respectable group is a simple attempt to prove to myself that what I believe that I have seen beyond subjectivity. Therefore, I hope for a little kindnesss from the group. Without writing a book, a short conversation with me would probably convince you that I am not one to trust in myths of any kind.

I have designed an experiment where utility lines are found in two demensions (not depth) with dowsing rods, where no human is touching the rods. I have also included criteria where no visual clues are possible. My goal is make to completely exclude the possiblity of ideomotor response or any other type of priori knowledge or deductive reasoning. I consider a successful location to be within 3 inches either way (a 6 inch area) and 9 out of 10 locations being accurate. Digging would be the final proof, but electronic line locator verfication would be seen as prelimany success.

I have made a request to the North Texas Skeptics Association to help design the experiment, but am looking for as much feedback as possible before I begin.

Based on the experiments cited here, I have probably deluded myself about my success at using dowsing rods to find untility lines, but I have been successful at proving a few things that were previously believed to be impossible, so I want to take a shot at this.

Again, the million dollars is to prove the supernatural and what I am attempting is nothing more than proving an unexplained natual effect that is no more supernatural than a compass pointing north. However, I am willing to withstand the same scrutiny (once I have disproven ideomotor response to myself).

What would it take to convice you? Please, assume that I am not a crackpot and a seeker of truth. Any responses (no matter how unkind) would be greatly appreciated.
 
Sherman Bay said:
Old Bob, it was because of claims like yours that The Million Dollar Challenge was created. It's basically a strong "put up or shut up" statement. It asks the claimant to demonstrate his claim under the fairest conditions possible, where fraud and delusions are ruled out.

It doesn't matter who knows the most about dowsing. Maybe you do, maybe not. Let's find out. Put up or shut up.

If it can be demonstrated, not only will the claimant have shown a doubtful principle to be true (at least once) and made a million people happy, but he will get a million dollars as a bonus. Forget the money, throw it away, gamble it in Vegas, give it to charity, give it back to JREF, send it to me, your choice. Just do it for the principle and the boasting rights. Your name will be in headlines world-wide.

If you don't apply for the Challenge, you have nothing but a crazy fantasy and we have the right to call you on it. Can you say "coward"? So put up or shut up, Dude.
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In the game of "Put Up Or Shut Up", Bob chose the latter.
 
First of all, welcome to the forum:)!
Winning the million would ruin this entire quest for truth.
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I don't understand where you're going with this. Do you mean that once dowsing is proven, then it's no longer a "mystery" or unexplained, and that this would be a bad thing, or do you mean that people shouldn't be offered monetary award for proving ideas? I view the amount of money as more of a "propaganda tool" than anything else-if I had a supernatural ability I wouldn't apply for testing for the one million dollars either, but to prove to the world that my abilities were real.

Also, it puts the person claiming a currently unproven theory under ethical scrutiny that may or may not be fair.
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Well, applicants of the MDC are themselves part of designing the protocols for their test, and so will work out with Randi's people a protocol that's fair to them.

As for the rest of your post, you seem to be unconvinced of your abilities and genuinely interested in learning more, which I applaud. Regardless of the outcome of your endavours, I wish you the best of luck.
 
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