Moderated Dowsing By Edge

[Jackalgirl]

Each of the jref team members can hold the phones.
It's the same test but in a different place and different dowsing rods silver is the target. The target may change.

In that case, though, it's not /exactly/ the same test. Remember, part of the protocol is to make sure that both teams (claimaint and test-setter-upper, whatever) never come into contact. How are you going to keep your teams apart? ETA: I mean, there won't be any "rooms" for them to leave or enter. This is outside. So what are you going to do?

The containers once I place them stay there through the whole test.

I'm not sure I understand this. You're placing the containers? How will the test target end up under one of the containers? Someone else is going to pick up the container and stick the target under it? If this is the case, I submit to you that this will be something that JREF will insist on changing. If the containers are static, then you may very well be able to tell (consciously or non-consciously) that one of them has been moved. We have to prove that it is /dowsing/ that is the effect here, so I strongly suggest that the test setup be set up from scratch each and every time.

You'll be able to participate there.

Boy, don't I wish that were the truth! Unfortunately, the "Challenge Applications" section is closed -- it'll be you and Jeff, plus any applicable messages to and from the local group who'll be observing your test. I'll tell you what, tho -- if you need any help or suggestions from me in regards to adjusting your test during the whole protocol negotation phase of this, please feel free to PM me. I'd be glad to help.

Would you be willing to post what you mailed, word-for-word? We might be able to give you a heads up on potential problems Jeff & the local group might have (such as you arranging the test setup and it not changing from test to test) so that you're prepared with a quick adjustment.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Really GzuzKryzt you are such a good mind reader.
You should apply!
Because I have.
...

Please post your claim like in you wrote it in your application, edge.

If you like, post the whole application. This would make things easier, since Jeff Wagg seems not to post them any more in the Challenge Application subforum.

One million reasons to provide proof.

 

[Tricky]

The envelope is mailed.

Really? Without having someone here proof-read it, though there were numerous offers? Given your lack of facility with the language and your difficulty in writing a protocol, that was just a waste of money for a registered mailing. I hope you borrowed Jackalgirl's protocol, but based on what you say, I'm betting you didn't.

Frankly, I'm not sure you mailed an application to the JREF. You have not been known in the past to be a bastion of veracity.

The containers once I place them stay there through the whole test.

That will never be acceptable, because you could just look to see if they had been moved or realigned. But of course, you don't mean they can't be moved around, or at least, I hope that's not what you mean, because it would be impossible to place the target if that were the case. I hope you mean that they won't be moved from the test area. I don't think that will be a problem.

Thanks for offering but it's done besides when it shows up if accepted they will post it and we will still be hashing out the fine details on the application thread.
You'll be able to participate there.

There wouldn't have been many "fine details" if you had let us look it over and help you edit it before you sent it. You may recall that Randi looked at one of your earlier proposals and said it was trash. Why would you turn down the many offers to help you write it? The only reason I can think of is because you want it to be turned down so you can claim that the JREF won't test you.
Well, they won't test you unless you agree to a properly conducted, double-blind test, and nothing you've ever posted here indicates that know how to design one.

 

[edge]

Really? Without having someone here proof-read it, though there were numerous offers? Given your lack of facility with the language and your difficulty in writing a protocol, that was just a waste of money for a registered mailing. I hope you borrowed Jackalgirl's protocol, but based on what you say, I'm betting you didn't.

Frankly, I'm not sure you mailed an application to the JREF. You have not been known in the past to be a bastion of veracity.


That will never be acceptable, because you could just look to see if they had been moved or realigned. But of course, you don't mean they can't be moved around, or at least, I hope that's not what you mean, because it would be impossible to place the target if that were the case. I hope you mean that they won't be moved from the test area. I don't think that will be a problem.


There wouldn't have been many "fine details" if you had let us look it over and help you edit it before you sent it. You may recall that Randi looked at one of your earlier proposals and said it was trash. Why would you turn down the many offers to help you write it? The only reason I can think of is because you want it to be turned down so you can claim that the JREF won't test you.
Well, they won't test you unless you agree to a properly conducted, double-blind test, and nothing you've ever posted here indicates that know how to design one.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2304225#post2304225

 

[edge]

They can’t be moved because the lids will be placed in a small hole ten of them.
One of them will be hiding the dollar or what ever target I use such as a nugget ect.
They will be in a straight line, and next to the holes will be a 2x12 board approximately 10 or 20 feet long so that all that walk there can’t disturb the ground.

They can however if they want change or lift each target lid to re-disturb the area around each of the holes slightly so that they are changed some what on each of my tries so there is a change to each of the holes or spots.
In this way I won’t be able to tell anything that is noticeable with one change of the coin from spot to spot.

There is no way that I can cheat.
These are the only flaws.
I want this to be a fair and honest test.

I’m sure that if the formal test can’t be done in the same manner on the same ground or a place that I choose I would then say that THE TEST FOR THE MONEY IS FLAWED.

What you seem to forget is that I place the containers in the open test and that’s where they stay for the closed portion of the test.

And to be fair by the time they get there I will have to re-establish them again.
Only the target is moved from then on.

 

[Jackalgirl]

They can’t be moved because the lids will be placed in a small hole ten of them.
One of them will be hiding the dollar or what ever target I use such as a nugget ect.
They will be in a straight line, and next to the holes will be a 2x12 board approximately 10 or 20 feet long so that all that walk there can’t disturb the ground.

They can however if they want change or lift each target lid to re-disturb the area around each of the holes slightly so that they are changed some what on each of my tries so there is a change to each of the holes or spots.
In this way I won’t be able to tell anything that is noticeable with one change of the coin from spot to spot.

Edge, I am SO RELIEVED to see you write something like this. I think that this is a good part of your protocol, and I think it'll be important that each target lid be lifted each time, for exactly the reason you specify.

What you seem to forget is that I place the containers in the open test and that’s where they stay for the closed portion of the test.

Nope, didn't forget. I just don't recall you ever saying this (in this thread). I grok that each numbered container will be in the same hole every time. I think that'll work fine -- if the containers are all lifted and replaced each time.

Did you write all of this into the protocol? Could you please post, here, your protocol exactly as you wrote it?

P.S. Let me tell you a story about my elementary school. I had a teacher named Chuck. He was kind of a weirdo, but in a good way -- inventive, crazy, interesting. One day, he wanted to teach us about instructions and making assumptions about what a complete stranger might or might know. So he asked us to write down instructions for making a peanut butter & jelly sandwich. Then he brought in all the gear (bread, jelly, peanut butter, knives) and started to follow the instructions. EXACTLY. It was hilarious. Many of the kids had not specified that a knife was required. "Spread peanut butter on one piece of bread," for example. So he'd use his hands to spread peanut butter on one piece of bread. All over it, both sides -- 'cause, you see, the instructions hadn't specified that you only spread peanut butter on ONE side (and hadn't mentioned the knife). All of our sandwiches came out profoundly screwed up. But it was a great lesson. To this day, when I talk about instructions, I talk about "peanut butter & jelly instructions". Edge, your protocol has to be peanut butter & jelly instructions. It has to have this level of intricate detail, so that there's no room for peanut butter ending up all over the bread, hands, etc.

 

[Tricky]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2304225#post2304225

Yes, I saw that, Edge, but it doesn't properly describe a double-blind test, though it is light years better than your earlier plan which was, roughly "dowse in a natural area then dig and see what you find". You are making progress, but there are still numerous details to work out about protocol. But this is a good start. Still, I wish you had let us help you before you sent off the application.

Practice on making sure you are dowsing without any info on the location of the target or any contact with anyone who has info. Also, don't forget the "open" test where you dowse when you know where the target is. If your success ratio is higher in the open test, then perhaps you might recognize that the response you get is subconsiously controlled by you (the idiomotor effect). But 60% in ten trials with ten targets is easily enough to win phase one of the challenge in the old rules. By the new rules, there is no "phase one" so you'll probably have to take more than ten tests so as to eliminate blind luck. I think though that if you took 100 tests, a success ratio of 25% (with ten targets for each test) might be enough for a win. But I'm not a representative of the JREF, so don't take my word as gospel.

The good news is that under the new rules (which you may not be subject to) if you pass the test, you win. In the old version, after you passed the preliminary test, all you got was a chance to try the final test. As you may be aware, nobody ever passed a preliminary test.

 

[Tricky]

P.S. Let me tell you a story about my elementary school. I had a teacher named Chuck. He was kind of a weirdo, but in a good way -- inventive, crazy, interesting. One day, he wanted to teach us about instructions and making assumptions about what a complete stranger might or might know. So he asked us to write down instructions for making a peanut butter & jelly sandwich. Then he brought in all the gear (bread, jelly, peanut butter, knives) and started to follow the instructions. EXACTLY. It was hilarious. Many of the kids had not specified that a knife was required. "Spread peanut butter on one piece of bread," for example. So he'd use his hands to spread peanut butter on one piece of bread. All over it, both sides -- 'cause, you see, the instructions hadn't specified that you only spread peanut butter on ONE side (and hadn't mentioned the knife). All of our sandwiches came out profoundly screwed up. But it was a great lesson. To this day, when I talk about instructions, I talk about "peanut butter & jelly instructions". Edge, your protocol has to be peanut butter & jelly instructions. It has to have this level of intricate detail, so that there's no room for peanut butter ending up all over the bread, hands, etc.

I'm falling in love with you, Jackalgirl.

(PS: see nomination thread)

As Dictator for the Language Award Nominations, I agree that this is an excellent post. However, it is not eligible for the January prize. It will have to wait untill February to see if it makes the finals.

 

[Dumb All Over]

As Dictator for the Language Award Nominations, I agree that this is an excellent post. However, it is not eligible for the January prize. It will have to wait untill February to see if it makes the finals.

For clarity, I'm sure you didn't mean BillyJoe's post is a candidate for TLA. Stating the obvious- Jackalgirl, Tricky meant your post. Otherwise, if that's all it takes, I love you, too, Jackalgirl!

 

[Spektator]

I was curious whether Edge has received a response to his letter of February 2, but I see he's managed to get himself suspended for activity in another thread. Oh, well.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

I was curious whether Edge has received a response to his letter of February 2, but I see he's managed to get himself suspended for activity in another thread. Oh, well.

A cynic would probably say that getting suspended or banned is edge's only way to save face.

Of course, I am never cynical when it comes to potential applicants weaseling away from their claims.

Just another day at the JREF Million Dollar Challenge Forum.

 

[Tricky]

A cynic would probably say that getting suspended or banned is edge's only way to save face.

Of course, I am never cynical when it comes to potential applicants weaseling away from their claims.

I doubt that Edge is doing that. What he got suspended for was essentially his inability to figure out how to make links and forgetting to give credit. If anything, he uses the forum as a way to procrastinate about taking the challenge. Maybe he'll use the break to get back to dowsing, but I imagine he's shut down mining for the winter.

As to the "letter" he sent, I wouldn't bet he actually sent a letter. He might have sent an e-mail to somebody (not necessarily Randi). I seriously doubt he was going to spring for the cash to send a registered letter.

You see, Edge, in addition to being a few stars short of a constellation, is also not a devoted slave to veracity.

 

[Spektator]

Snip....

As to the "letter" he sent, I wouldn't bet he actually sent a letter. He might have sent an e-mail to somebody (not necessarily Randi). I seriously doubt he was going to spring for the cash to send a registered letter.

You see, Edge, in addition to being a few stars short of a constellation, is also not a devoted slave to veracity.

Well, he did tell us on February 2

The envelope is mailed.

I would hope he wouldn't lie to us. It's a sin to tell a lie, they say.

 

[ObscureReferenceMan]

Oh, and edge, is the link you gave (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.p...25#post2304225) your protocol? If so, it is rather vaguely worded, and not very detailed.

 

[Dumb All Over]

I would hope he wouldn't lie to us. It's a sin to tell a lie, they say.

I chatted with Jeff Wagg about an hour ago. He confirmed that he did receive an application from edge. Jeff said the application was being processed. He said he was currently communicating with edge via email. He did not say whether the app. was acceptable or not, just that it was being processed.

 

[edge]

I chatted with Jeff Wagg about an hour ago. He confirmed that he did receive an application from edge. Jeff said the application was being processed. He said he was currently communicating with edge via email. He did not say whether the app. was acceptable or not, just that it was being processed.

I haven't heard nothing yet.
My email address is in here though.

 

[Paulhoff]

I just saw Jeff last Wednesday night, you should have told me to ask him.

Paul

 

[edge]

It's in here under user Cp I guess he can PM me also.
There's no big hurry the weather is icky.
Lots of snow and ice on the passes.
Water isn't high though.
I haven't been up there to do the double blind on myself yet.
I hope to do that soon with the other form of dowsing "L rods" and on those neutral spots with silver or a copper coil.
We’ll see, it’s all in the numbers.

 

[edge]

That whole suspension thing was bullship.
Tricky posted a link I went into it and pasted something and if you followed the conversation you could have figured it out but Noo.
They suspended me for using the same links that I had been using with most of those pages.
Go and figure.
Being suspended from the forum wouldn't affect the challenge at least I would think it wouldn't.
Since they are so touchy I backed off.
I try to write my own stuff now.

 

[edge]

Tricky, are you and Sezme still up for the test if it happens?
They haven't contacted me yet and that's good, the weather is still a factor and as soon as it's clear enough I will test myself on that particular bank.

I may end it before anyone spends any money to do this.
But I may also say bring it on, and at that point you'll know that I have the numbers of correct hits to proceed.

I made it up there to check on the neutrality of the ground using the L rods and there are several choices as to where to place the targets.
I ran out of time but this is one step, and I have one to go.

Finding a friend up there to spend the time is difficult as they are pressed for cash in that town.
The overall test can last up to three hours.
I’m calling people today to see if I can get a commitment on that.

The test may not take that long if it’s undoable.
If it is I’ll know right away then we are looking at several hours.

Now, as to your letter of application; Is there a reason you aren't showing it to us? Certainly you are within your right to keep it private, but we really could help you polish up the wording and stuff. No offense, but your writing really isn't very good, which is one reason why we can always tell when you are pasting stuff you haven't written.

I already have shown it to you and it is simple to understand.
I will post anything that they want to work out on here or the other thread about the applications.
It'll probably be about our timing, you, Sezme and myself to actually run the test.

Here it is,

So I will do a hidden container test like at the office except on the bank on the creek.
The difference is the target will be on the ground hidden by the container but most likely the lids of the containers that I already have.
The target will be an 1885 silver dollar you know the large ones.
The dowsing rods or the attractors are radio antennas that are L rods.
Totally insulated from my body.
I will dowse ten containers ten times in each category open and close and I will say that I will get 60% correct.
Then the next test that will be the formal I will repeat the process.
I will be allowed two days for those tests so that I may be able to stop and rest when I feel the need to or continue the next day for the formal test.
This test will occur when I think it is reasonably warm enough to stay on the bank of the creek long enough to get one set of testing done. That could be as soon as Feb. or March.
It also depends on the volunteers’ scheduling and mine.
We can use cell phones to communicate when one team is ready to leave the test area and one team with myself is ready to go to the testing area.

After the tests we can have a little party if the participants wish.
Edge

How’s that? It’s good I think.

And the addendum,
They can’t be moved because the lids will be placed in a small hole ten of them.
One of them will be hiding the dollar or what ever target I use such as a nugget ect.
They will be in a straight line, and next to the holes will be a 2x12 board approximately 10 or 20 feet long so that all that walk there can’t disturb the ground.

They can however if they want change or lift each target lid to re-disturb the area around each of the holes slightly so that they are changed some what on each of my tries so there is a change to each of the holes or spots.
In this way I won’t be able to tell anything that is noticeable with one change of the coin from spot to spot.