Moderated Dowsing By Edge

[BillyJoe]

Or for that matter, why would a thousand failures persuade him otherwise?

He has failed only once that he knows of for sure. All the other times he feels he has succeeded.
Also, you're preempting the outcome of future tests and edge's response to them.
That's not really scientific.

Especially if the mechanism is not known?!! If dowsing has never been shown to work in the first place, talking of an unknown mechanism is like putting the cart before the horse. What gibberish is this?

Misdirection.

I was saying that, if a possible mechanism for dowsing is not known but you are convinced from a lifetimes experience of successful dowsing that dowsing works, and a test shows it doesn't work, then it would be reasonable to think that the peculiar setup might have introduced a variable which interferred with the outcome that you normally get in the field.

Can you parse all that?

You seem to imply that within the annals of scientific history, only one dowsing test has ever been conducted.

You seem to forget that we are talking about an individual called edge and his specific abilities and methods. That has been tried only once.

 

[Jackalgirl]

A day maybe two.
I have to go up there from here and run the tests and then I will know if the spot is good to go.

Hi edge --

Well, I'm not so much interested in the spot (at this time) as I am in the protocol. So I have two questions for you:

1) Assuming that the spot is free of interference, are you okay with the protocol I suggested?

2) What tests, in particular, are you going to run? In other words, could you describe the protocol you'll be using, using a description comparable to the one I gave you here?

 

[Paulhoff]

Before the test they all agree that everything with the test is OK and after they fail the test they then point out what is wrong with the test.

Paul

 

[Jackalgirl]

Before the test they all agree that everything with the test is OK and after they fail the test they then point out what is wrong with the test.

Paul

We've certainly seen that before! But that's the point of the "calibration test" of my protocol (and BillyJoe's most excellent suggestion to run the calibration test more than once). Not that having calibration runs built into the test has ever stopped anyone from suddenly finding some new objection after the test (see Randi's Australian test of dowsers), of course, but it's still important. : )

 

[Paulhoff]

Calibrate to your hearts content, the results will be the same for the test and the excuses will be forthcoming from the dower.

Dowers and audiophiles (that can hear differences in wire etc) come from the same boat. Before the test they know for a fact that they have the gift and know without a doubt that they will past the test. But after they fail it is always the test that is at fault, never is it them or their ideas on their alleged abilities.

Paul

 

[petre]

From what I can see for 12 watts going in,"as I believe is powering the dowsing rod" I get at least a quarter pound of force.
That's with a counter weight on a hanging scale.

You will still say it's the ideomotor effect.

Well, what'd I'd say isn't really going to matter in the end. If it can be setup where it can be demonstrated that the force doesn't come from increased/decreased pressure in your hand (ideomotor effect or otherwise), then it'd be a worthy demonstration. My suggestion earlier was supporting it from below (I had pictured just putting one knuckle beneath the near end), but I'm not sure of a good way to eliminate it offhand since I don't know more about it.

If it works through a rubber glove, perhaps it could work through a hard cast? Or without human contact at all? The cast could be attached to the rod and scale system in such a way that none of the components would ever move relative to one another, which I think would exclude the ideomotor effect from being a possible cause of measured force.

 

[edge]

So I will do a hidden container test like at the office except on the bank on the creek.
The difference is the target will be on the ground hidden by the container but most likely the lids of the containers that I already have.
The target will be a 1885 silver dollar you know the large ones.
The dowsing rods or the attractors are radio antennas that are L rods.
Totally insulated from my body.
I will dowse ten containers ten times in each category open and close and I will say that I will get 60% correct.
Then the next test that will be the formal I will repeat the process.
I will be allowed two days for those test so that I may be able to stop and rest when I feel the need to or continue the next day for the formal test..
This test will occur when I think it is reasonably warm enough to stay on the bank of the creek long enough to get one set of testing done. That could be as soon as Feb. or March.
It also depends on the volunteers’ scheduling and mine.
We can use cell phones to communicate when one team is ready to leave the test area and one team with myself is ready to go to the testing area.

After the tests we can have a little party if the participants wish.
Edge

How’s that?

 

[NoZed Avenger]

I think you may have missed the point.

The idea is to test in such a way as to eliminate all known confounding variables as far as possible. That's what a scientific test aims to do. It seems edge has found a plot of land free of any response to dowsing - which, to him, means there is no gold there. So, no geographical clues to a gold deposit. Perfect for an in-the-field test. If we keep out any other possible sources of artificial interference to the complete satisfaction of edge, we'll be ready for the actual test.

Also, it is not edge's claim that his dowsing is an "incredibly powerful, useful, and consistently correct ability". He gets 6 out of 10. He is not a rich man. All he claims is that he finds more gold with dowsing than without.

I don't think I missed the point.

I understand the reason for the test and the set-up.

His reliability claims have also dwindled somewhat from the time of the initial testing; see also his many, many posts early in this very thread talking about the usefulness of dowsing in general.

And yet this ability can be completely negated by background chatter in practically every spot on the entire planet, apparently, except maybe one small plot of land.

No, I haven't missed the point. Nor do I think I was particularly rude; I did not aim anything at edge specifically and have wished him luck inthe past. I still do.

 

[edge]

If this is good to go I'll send it tomorrow.
If accepted that buys me up to a year if I need that much time .
I think I only need a few more days to pin piont the exact day.
That will be stated on the application threads with Mr. Wagg.

 

[edge]

I don't think I missed the point.

I understand the reason for the test and the set-up.

His reliability claims have also dwindled somewhat from the time of the initial testing; see also his many, many posts early in this very thread talking about the usefulness of dowsing in general.

And yet this ability can be completely negated by background chatter in practically every spot on the entire planet, apparently, except maybe one small plot of land.

No, I haven't missed the point.

What ever I said before doesn't matter and now with silver as the target and steel antennas as the dowsing mecinism that might not be the only place on the planet.
I'm acually thinking there may be a chance in at least two other states that I know of.
I have done many more expeiments since then on and off.
It works when you mine I know now how it will work for a simple test.

 

[edge]

What happens when I mine is this that tiny little chatter is usually gold and other small metals that are scattered then somewhere near that chatter is a bigger hit.
As a miner we get all of it in that location if it's with in a fairly close proximity.
So I see what all that chatter is as well as the bigger hits.
I have done this many many times, to see what it is and bring it up, with a dredge, a pan, or a sluice box and buckets.

What I know in the creek while mining is that I’m feeling every little piece of metal that’s there.

 

[BillyJoe]

His reliability claims have also dwindled somewhat from the time of the initial testing; see also his many, many posts early in this very thread talking about the usefulness of dowsing in general....And yet this ability can be completely negated by background chatter in practically every spot on the entire planet, apparently, except maybe one small plot of land.

I am wondering why you don't see this as a great achievement by all of us. Edge, by constant test and trial, has narrowed his claim down to a very specific ability which is suitable for testing for the prize; and we have all helped him to that end by our constant helpful and positive advice and analysis (yes, well, I'm overstating that a bit ).

No, I haven't missed the point. Nor do I think I was particularly rude; I did not aim anything at edge specifically and have wished him luck inthe past. I still do.

I don't remember saying or implying you were rude to edge. That is difficult to do because he has been trying so hard to narrow down exactly what he can do, side stepping all the insults and preconceived conclusions with good humour along the way. I also wish him luck. Hell, I hope he wins the prize (well, maybe I'm going a bit far here )

regards,
BillyJoe

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

I will dowse ten containers ten times in each category open and close and I will say that I will get 60% correct.
Then the next test that will be the formal I will repeat the process.
I will be allowed two days for those test so that I may be able to stop and rest when I feel the need to or continue the next day for the formal test..

How’s that?

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm guessing that you won't be able to do the formal immediately following the preliminary. My understanding is that you must first pass the preliminary, which will make you eligible for the formal, and that may require some additional preparation by JREF.

 

[Paulhoff]

I was talking to Jeff at Randi's meeting last night about edge, mostly all he did was shake his head.

Paul

 

[GzuzKryzt]

I was talking to Jeff at Randi's meeting last night about edge, mostly all he did was shake his head.

Paul

What exactly did you two talk about, Paulhoff?

 

[edge]

I was talking to Jeff at Randi's meeting last night about edge, mostly all he did was shake his head.

Paul

This reminds me of sibling rivalry

L.M.A.O.

Why not say, on here, what you had to say, sum it up for us you big baby.
For the first time in any of your posts you have us all in suspense.
Don’t worry I won’t get mad and tell daddy James!

Snicker snicker!!

Edge crawls off to wipe off the tears……….From laughter!!!!!!!!

Tell me Paula what’s up with you? You mad cause I took your candy?

 

[GzuzKryzt]

This reminds me of sibling rivalry

L.M.A.O.

Why not say, on here, what you had to say, sum it up for us you big baby.
For the first time in any of your posts you have us all in suspense.
Don’t worry I won’t get mad and tell daddy James!

Snicker snicker!!

Edge crawls off to wipe off the tears……….From laughter!!!!!!!!

Tell me Paula what’s up with you? You mad cause I took your candy?

Touched a nerve, didn't he? (Told you, Paul.)



Edge, please prove your claim that you can "dowse".

 

[NoZed Avenger]

I don't remember saying or implying you were rude to edge.

Ah. Well, I'll chalk it down to my misreading and the awkwardness of the internet format then. I had read your reply as you feeling the need to run a bit of interference (acting as a "niceness buffer") in case I was being too harsh. Sorry; I'll plead a long work-week and lack of sleep.

 

[Jackalgirl]

So I will do a hidden container test like at the office except on the bank on the creek.
...

We can use cell phones to communicate when one team is ready to leave the test area and one team with myself is ready to go to the testing area.

Sorry not to refer back to the office test, but what I'm looking for is a precise description of what you're planning to do. Could you link to the office test (I can't find it right off the bat) and then describe what you're doing that's different? I already know you're doing the test on a river back instead of in an office, but what other changes have you made? Obviously, phrases like "the applicant will leave the room" don't apply outside, so please let us know what you're doing instead. Some questions/comments:

1) I'm assuming that when you mention volunteers, they'll be along for the whole ride. Is that correct? How many volunteers do you have, and exactly what will they be doing? I only ask because your basic description doesn't mention the volunteers until the end, so I just want to make sure I'm understanding everything correctly.

2) Cellphones: not a bad idea, but make sure that you control for trickery. For example, make sure that no one actually speaks (conceivably, people could set up a code phrase to pass along where the coin is. It'd be complicated, but it could be done). I'd recommend just checking the phone to make sure it's coming from the other team, while the other team lets the phone ring, say, four times (/each time/ -- no number codes!) before they hang up.

3) Are you either following my suggestion re: the two areas, one for each team, that are both out of the sight & hearing of each other and the test area?

4) Will the team that is setting up the test containers and target be making absolutely sure that they are picking up all of the containers in between each test, so that each attempt is made against a completely freshly made-up setup?

5) What are the shapes of your containers? I recommend round. Someone could conceivably set up all square containers, for example, so that they're lined up with one another, then subtly shift the one the coin's under. Watch out for that. When you do the blinded test, you absolutely want to make sure that there is NO CLUE as to where the target is. This will strengthen the claim that you are not unconsciously cueing.

When you write your protocol up and send it in to Jeff, please please please make sure that you use the level of detail I used in my initial protocol description to you. If you would like some help getting it typed up and formatted, please let me know. I'd be happy to help.

 

[edge]

The envelope is mailed.

Paul don't be angry I'm not. I know when you post binary code your angry.
Jackalgirl
Each of the jref team members can hold the phones.
It's the same test but in a different place and different dowsing rods silver is the target. The target may change.

The containers once I place them stay there through the whole test.

Thanks for offering but it's done besides when it shows up if accepted they will post it and we will still be hashing out the fine details on the application thread.
You'll be able to participate there.