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Moderated Dowsing By Edge

edge

Banned
E
Joined
Feb 14, 2004
Messages
5,436
Dear Sirs,
I am willing to take the test for dowsing again as James said that he can send people to the field to test me the last time I tested.
I knew then as now that one set of tests is not scientifically viable.
Many need to be done.
The test will take place in Hayfork California.
The tests will be done by the J.R.E.F. team the exact same way as done in the office with the exception of the following.
1. The containers will be plastic Folgers coffee cans, the 11-oz. version. Red with black lids. You can bring your own or use the ones I have.
2. The tests will be conducted in the park or a particular bank in the creek that will be exposed and dry at a certain time of the year, around the end of August. I prefer the park but that option is open to me. One of two places here in town.
3. The target will be black sands, both magnetic and non magnetic, gold, lead, platinum, mercury coated gold, iron and what ever else is in the black sands. This is what is found in the creek with the gold.
4. It will fill any one of the containers.
5. No one in the field, where the containers are set up will reach into they’re pockets at any time. I will have an observer to make sure no one tampers with the area that the tests are being done at when the tests are being done, because anyone can salt the ground with any metals and then I will get false readings.
6. The J.R.E.F. has the right to check with any scanner, metal detector, or any other detector that there is nothing in the ground to aid me in the challenge.
7. I may do five tries one day and five tries the next if I feel that I must stop if overwhelmed with the impute that I feel.
8. I do not want to know any correct or incorrect hits till the test is over.
9. I will hit 50% correct hits, but I will hope to do 70% at least, but we’ll stay with what we know here right now and that’s 50%.
10. You can use the information any way you want, but not the theories that are to come from this when I win, those are mine.
11. You guys are so sure that this is a loosing proposition that you should have no problems with this.
12. J.R.E.F. will pay for the testers motel and gas expenses.
Under Article 3, the applicant allows all his test data to be used by the Foundation in any way Mr. Randi may choose. That means that Mr. Randi can pick and chose the data at will and decide what to do with it and what verdict to pronounce on it. Under Article 7, the applicant surrenders all rights to legal action against the Foundation, or Mr. Randi, no matter what emotional, professional or financial injury he may consider he has sustained. Thus even if Mr. Randi comes to a conclusion different from that reached by his judges and publicly denounces the test, the applicant would have no redress. The Foundation and Mr. Randi own all the data. Mr. Randi can claim that the judges were fooled. The implicit accusation of fraud would leave the challenger devoid of remedy.
13. Get rid of article 3 if I WIN! Do we have a deal? Dates for the test are your chose as long as it’s before the rainy season that starts about the end of October. So between August and October.

The foundation does not own all the data that comes from theory. The foundation can only use data that pertains to the test............Not theory. I will put this letter in the million-dollar challenge thread. So we can discuss it there.
14. When the protocol is agreed upon I will send in the application.
Mike Guska

THIS LETTER HAS BEEN SENT.
 
edge said:
Dear Sirs,
I am willing to take the test for dowsing again as James said that he can send people to the field to test me the last time I tested.
I knew then as now that one set of tests is not scientifically viable.
Many need to be done.
The test will take place in Hayfork California.
The tests will be done by the J.R.E.F. team the exact same way as done in the office with the exception of the following.
1. The containers will be plastic Folgers coffee cans, the 11-oz. version. Red with black lids. You can bring your own or use the ones I have.
2. The tests will be conducted in the park or a particular bank in the creek that will be exposed and dry at a certain time of the year, around the end of August. I prefer the park but that option is open to me. One of two places here in town.
3. The target will be black sands, both magnetic and non magnetic, gold, lead, platinum, mercury coated gold, iron and what ever else is in the black sands. This is what is found in the creek with the gold.
4. It will fill any one of the containers.
5. No one in the field, where the containers are set up will reach into they’re pockets at any time. I will have an observer to make sure no one tampers with the area that the tests are being done at when the tests are being done, because anyone can salt the ground with any metals and then I will get false readings.
6. The J.R.E.F. has the right to check with any scanner, metal detector, or any other detector that there is nothing in the ground to aid me in the challenge.
7. I may do five tries one day and five tries the next if I feel that I must stop if overwhelmed with the impute that I feel.
8. I do not want to know any correct or incorrect hits till the test is over.
9. I will hit 50% correct hits, but I will hope to do 70% at least, but we’ll stay with what we know here right now and that’s 50%.
10. You can use the information any way you want, but not the theories that are to come from this when I win, those are mine.
11. You guys are so sure that this is a loosing proposition that you should have no problems with this.
12. J.R.E.F. will pay for the testers motel and gas expenses.
Under Article 3, the applicant allows all his test data to be used by the Foundation in any way Mr. Randi may choose. That means that Mr. Randi can pick and chose the data at will and decide what to do with it and what verdict to pronounce on it. Under Article 7, the applicant surrenders all rights to legal action against the Foundation, or Mr. Randi, no matter what emotional, professional or financial injury he may consider he has sustained. Thus even if Mr. Randi comes to a conclusion different from that reached by his judges and publicly denounces the test, the applicant would have no redress. The Foundation and Mr. Randi own all the data. Mr. Randi can claim that the judges were fooled. The implicit accusation of fraud would leave the challenger devoid of remedy.
13. Get rid of article 3 if I WIN! Do we have a deal? Dates for the test are your chose as long as it’s before the rainy season that starts about the end of October. So between August and October.

The foundation does not own all the data that comes from theory. The foundation can only use data that pertains to the test............Not theory. I will put this letter in the million-dollar challenge thread. So we can discuss it there.
14. When the protocol is agreed upon I will send in the application.
Mike Guska

THIS LETTER HAS BEEN SENT.
Click to expand...
Now for the big question...

Have you actually done what you're planning to do, or are you going to wing it like you did last time?
 
I have hit 50%, the rest I have to check yet as discussed in seeing is believing thread.
I figure I have some time to better my results in one of two spots.

I tried the other day with out dowsing and got four specks verses looking for it using the dowsing technique, at which point is a huge advantage.

The last time I dowsed, the other day it produced just about a half an ounce.

Some times you have to wing it, I was there to learn what I needed to learn, even though I failed, It made me understand that I was right about neutral ground and placement of targets in a neutral area, much better results.

My theories on this subject are mine ....... They ,J.R.E.F. can change anything they want.
What I ask for is pretty understandable.
 
#12 is a no-go, and you know it Edge. The testee assumes all costs, it's in the rules.

Also, I'm kind of unimpressed that you can tell that one coffee can is filled to the top with sand while the rest are empty, but I guess it only matters if JREF would be impressed by it or not. I can think of several ways you could unconsciously detect which can had the sand in it.
 
Determining if a plastic Folger's can is full or empty when it is sitting on the ground and you can walk right up to it is trivial and non-paranormal. James Randi or Uri Geller :blush: would get it right about 100 % of the time. 50 % is what is expected by chance, unless you have many cans to choose from and have to pick one. (The OP doesn't specify that.)

(Coffee-advice: Folger's is not all that good.)
 
edge said:
I tried the other day with out dowsing and got four specks verses looking for it using the dowsing technique, at which point is a huge advantage.

The last time I dowsed, the other day it produced just about a half an ounce.
Click to expand...
I wrote a critical piece on water witching by water district operators and cited a hydrogeologist who stated that "the natural explanation of 'successful' water dowsing is that in many areas, water would be hard to miss!"

You're dowsing for gold, right? And you're dowsing for gold in creeks in California, right? Didn't they have a gold rush in California a few years back? Kinda hard to miss, don't you think?

What am I missing here??
 
Ririon said:
Determining if a plastic Folger's can is full or empty when it is sitting on the ground and you can walk right up to it is trivial and non-paranormal. James Randi or Uri Geller :blush: would get it right about 100 % of the time.
Click to expand...

Didn't Geller do pretty much the same thing at Stanford, only with film cans? The supposed method is discussed in "The Truth About Uri Geller".
 
He also seems to be under the impression that there are judges present at tests. Since it seems he's actually taken a preliminary test before, it should seem obvious that this is not the case.
 
Where do you guys come up with all this crap?
Wow!
I'm about to put four people on a bunch, read the thread Seeing is beliveing.
But we have to dive for it, to snipe.
You probably don't know what that is.
I'll let you know how that turns out.

If it's so easy to find try it.

Jeff I did e-mail it.
 
Note the common misconception that the legal disclaimer allows JREF to refuse to fulfill the agreement. Kinda makes the whole thing pointless if that's so, doesn't it?
 
I think it goes without saying, but here goes anyway: I do not represent the JREF; all official challenge related business should be done directly with the JREF.

edge said:
...
1. The containers will be plastic Folgers coffee cans, the 11-oz. version. Red with black lids. You can bring your own or use the ones I have.
Click to expand...
Just curious, why does it have to be that certain brand?

edge said:
...
9. I will hit 50% correct hits, but I will hope to do 70% at least, but we’ll stay with what we know here right now and that’s 50%.
Click to expand...

These numbers don't mean anything without more information. Try something like this:

There will be a total of 10 cans. One with the "special" sand and 9 with regular sand. For each run I will make one "guess" at which can has the special sand. Each time the cans will be moved and I will try again. This will be done a total of 10 times. To be considered a successful test, I will correctly identify the can with the "special" sand 50% of the time (at least 5 times out of 10). Anything less will be considered a failure.

I recommend you put a similar substance in the other cans so the "special" sand can not be identified by weight alone. I also recommend that the cans be further concealed (like put in a bag, or something).


edge said:
...
12. J.R.E.F. will pay for the testers motel and gas expenses.
Click to expand...

LOL! You know that is not going to happen!

LLH
 
I'm missing something. Is Mike saying that he will detect naturally occurring metals in the sand from the site placed into the cans, or that there will be separate objects (gold, etc) manually placed in the cans along with the native sand?

CT
 
LordoftheLeftHand said:
These numbers don't mean anything without more information. Try something like this:

There will be a total of 10 cans. One with the "special" sand and 9 with regular sand. For each run I will make one "guess" at which can has the special sand. Each time the cans will be moved and I will try again. This will be done a total of 10 times. To be considered a successful test, I will correctly identify the can with the "special" sand 50% of the time (at least 5 times out of 10). Anything less will be considered a failure.
Click to expand...

LordoftheLeftHand's point is very important.

So, Edge, when you say you have acheived 50% success, you don't mean that you were using two cans and that you picked the correct one half the time, do you?
 
edge said:
2. The tests will be conducted in the park or a particular bank in the creek that will be exposed and dry at a certain time of the year, around the end of August. I prefer the park but that option is open to me. One of two places here in town.
3. The target will be black sands, both magnetic and non magnetic, gold, lead, platinum, mercury coated gold, iron and what ever else is in the black sands. This is what is found in the creek with the gold.
Click to expand...

The target will be something which is lying around all over the test site?

But last time you claimed to be thrown off by gold which was in the room (even though it turned out not to be gold after all). Are you sure you won't be using the same excuse again?
 
Ladewig said:
LordoftheLeftHand's point is very important.

So, Edge, when you say you have acheived 50% success, you don't mean that you were using two cans and that you picked the correct one half the time, do you?
Click to expand...
Well, he did say the test setup isthe same as was done during his first preliminary test with Randi, so I'm assuming he means he will achieve 50% under that scenerio. I don't remember the set up, but it was definitely more than 2 targets. Still, a clarification would be nice.
 
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