Checking for target strength is not a test and would only take a second or two.
I am allowed whatever target I want that part can be changed if it improves the reaction it will then make the test quicker.
That part can be tweaked 5 ounces of gold vs. 5 ounces of silver.
It doesn’t matter once it’s sent it’s done.
To get the kind of reaction that we witnessed would help, the silver might be good I will check it why not.
SezMe knows why.
So it might be a test, but his protocol is good to go.
If you had time what would you do?
Wouldn’t you make sure about every aspect of what this entails?
GzuzKryzt asks,
I fixed it, “his name”.
Well there are others that may test me.
Kenny 10 Bellys
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2005
- Messages
- 290
And you know this because....? You've dowsed it all? You're a geologist who's spent the last 20 years mapping the water table? You made it up?
I'm with the rest, kill this thread and leave it at that. Edge and his barely coherent ramblings were amusing at first, but it's growing real old real fast and there's no danger of getting him tested anytime soon. Even if he does get tested and fails again it will not be because dowsing doesn't work, it'll be because of something he makes up on the day. He has already stated that peer reviewed scientific tests are nothing compared to stories he's heard in bars. We cant test this guy, he's in a little world of his own making.
I'm with the rest, kill this thread and leave it at that. Edge and his barely coherent ramblings were amusing at first, but it's growing real old real fast and there's no danger of getting him tested anytime soon. Even if he does get tested and fails again it will not be because dowsing doesn't work, it'll be because of something he makes up on the day. He has already stated that peer reviewed scientific tests are nothing compared to stories he's heard in bars. We cant test this guy, he's in a little world of his own making.
Except that earlier you said this:
Don't you think it's a little dishonest to claim those were the only two issues left when you still haven't agreed on a place to be tested, and apparently aren't even sure if such a place exists?
nathan
Zygoticly Phased
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2004
- Messages
- 3,477
Here again is your misunderstanding of what the protocol is. If the protocol (would that it ever got signed off), specified '5oz silver target', then the target shall be '5oz silver target'. You would not be able to turn up with some other target and have it used.
You continuously make ambiguous vague statements and then become annoyed when people ask you to be specific and clarify.
edge, your application has been rejected. Your test is over, defunct, kaput, finished, gone, ceased, washed-up, wiped-out. It is a non-test. Dead and buried. Terminated like a liquid-metal robot. It's gone belly up, hopes perished and dashed. You've been eighty-sixed, done-in and ruined.
Forget about the MDC, me old boyo, because for you edgey, ze war is over.
Forget about the MDC, me old boyo, because for you edgey, ze war is over.
In general, I don't keep up with these threads, so messages should NOT be directed to me in the forum. Send mail to jeff@randi.org.
However, I see there's a lot of interest in testing Edge. So.. do it.
You don't need the JREF to conduct a test. Go through it all.. see what happens. If Edge (with help) develops a protocol and he passes, great. He can apply again in a year, and he can apply for the other challenges whenever he'd like. Get it working BEFORE you apply though.
However, I see there's a lot of interest in testing Edge. So.. do it.
You don't need the JREF to conduct a test. Go through it all.. see what happens. If Edge (with help) develops a protocol and he passes, great. He can apply again in a year, and he can apply for the other challenges whenever he'd like. Get it working BEFORE you apply though.Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
- Joined
- May 1, 2005
- Messages
- 12,512
So let it be written, so let it be done............In general, I don't keep up with these threads, so messages should NOT be directed to me in the forum. Send mail to jeff@randi.org.
However, I see there's a lot of interest in testing Edge. So.. do it.
In a Yul Brenner voice..............
Paul
Tricky
Briefly immortal
There is water in almost all places where there are sedimentary rocks and many places that there are not. Can you tell us what you mean when you say "Wrong" edge? Maybe we can help you clear up your misconceptions.
I'll address Jeff’s statement later.
But here's what I figured would work for me and them.
Till they backed out.
So I changed the Jref to I.I.G..
Do the number of hits seem to be correct for the final test?
Here is Spectators protocol a friend of mine, which addresses the time issue for the preliminary.
I don't know statistics, so I don't know if 4 out of 5 will be an acceptable test result for the test
I.I.G.PROTOCOL FOR DOWSING TESTThe claim:
The dowser can successfully detect the presence of a concealed target consisting of 5 ounces of silver 4 times in 5 runs of ten attempts each, with a one-in-ten possibility of identifying the target by chance alone in each of the five runs.Material required:1 target, 5 oz. silver1 5-lb bag of flour.10 11-ounce plastic coffee containers numbered 1-10Scale and one dowsing stick with coin in the end.One tripod.Procedure:The dowser will attempt to locate the target hidden inside one of the containers. There will be five runs of ten containers each, numbered 1-10. In each run, the target will be present in one container only, and the other nine containers will be stabilized by eight ounces of flour.The containers will be prepared this way: In nine of the containers for each trial there will be eight ounces of flour. These are the dummy containers. In the remaining container there will be three ounces of flour plus the five-ounce target.All the flour dummies will be in plastic bags so transfer is easy. The target container will be determined by a random process. An individual we will call the randomizer will prepare the containers for each run; the dowser will have a representative who will verify that the container with the target actually does contain the target. This will be done by the randomizer’s, preparing five lists, consisting of numbers from 1-10. When the target container has been selected and prepared the randomizer will mark a T in the space opposite that number on the list; the dowser’s representative will initial the sheet to show that it is correct. At no time will the randomizer or the dowser’s representative be in verbal, electronic, or visual communication with the dowser; if the dowser somehow does come into contact with the randomizer or the representative, that run will be declared null and void.Before the test begins, the dowser will locate a specific spot on which all the containers will be placed, one at a time, for his dowsing test. The scale will be set up so that the dowser can attach his dowsing rod to it directly over the spot where the containers will be placed.The dowser will then move away to a waiting area and will be out of sight of the testing area at the beginning of each trial. The dowser will witness the recording of the dowser's readings by initialing each numbered list after the run of ten is complete.The randomizer will choose one of the containers in which to place the target for each run of ten. The randomizer will prepare the containers and mark the list; the dowser’s second representative will initial the list to signify that it is complete. The randomizer will signal (perhaps by blowing a whistle in a particular pattern: long-short-long, for example) the placement team when the containers are ready. The randomizer and second dowser’s representative will leave the area, and the placement team will then come to the preparation area and will one by one move the containers to the test spot for the dowsing attempt. The placement team will not know which container conceals the target. The placement team will take each container to the test site; place it on the test spot the dowser has located, and signal the dowser. Then the placement team will leave before the dowser arrives with his observer and the JREF observer(s).The dowser will use his dowsing rod on each container and will say whether the container does or does not contain the silver target.When the dowser has stated this, the observer will record his opinion on a sheet numbered 1-10. If the dowser says the target is present, the number corresponding to the container will be marked T. If not, the number will be marked 0. There can be only one T in each run of ten containers. Both the observer and the dowser will initial the finished test sheet after each run of ten.The process will be repeated five times, with the target randomly placed in a container for each time and with each container placed on the same spot for each dowsing attempt. After each container is removed, the placement team will wait a minimum of three minutes before placing the next container. After each run of ten dowsing attempts, the dowser will have a rest period of ten minutes.At the end of all 5 runs (50 dowsing trials), all participants will compare the observers' list with T marked to show which containers the dowser believes hold the target and the randomizer's record of which containers actually held the target. Until that time, the randomizer and dowser's representative will not communicate with the dowser and the I.I.G. observer in any way.To succeed, the dowser will have to correctly identify the target container four out of five times. If the dowser correctly identifies the target container three out of five times or less, that will be a failure.If I pass this preliminary the final for the Money will be a test of 100 passes with 7 out 0f 10 for the win.The time line for the final will be about 8 hours.
__________________Mm, I like your conspiracy theory. Your facts are so...twisted. Your drivel so mindless.
My time line is still September or October to actually have you test me.
If we do the
preliminary up here at Coffee creek at the Bonanza Creek Resort, I will pay for the stay of the testers.
I would like to do the final there too a few days later, if scheduling permits for you.
I have to work out the rental of the cabins at the resort with the owner and make sure that I can dredge there which will pay for the I.I.G.s representatives stay there.
I think that this is pretty clear.
Mike Guska
But here's what I figured would work for me and them.
Till they backed out.
So I changed the Jref to I.I.G..
Do the number of hits seem to be correct for the final test?
Here is Spectators protocol a friend of mine, which addresses the time issue for the preliminary.
I don't know statistics, so I don't know if 4 out of 5 will be an acceptable test result for the test
I.I.G.PROTOCOL FOR DOWSING TESTThe claim:
The dowser can successfully detect the presence of a concealed target consisting of 5 ounces of silver 4 times in 5 runs of ten attempts each, with a one-in-ten possibility of identifying the target by chance alone in each of the five runs.Material required:1 target, 5 oz. silver1 5-lb bag of flour.10 11-ounce plastic coffee containers numbered 1-10Scale and one dowsing stick with coin in the end.One tripod.Procedure:The dowser will attempt to locate the target hidden inside one of the containers. There will be five runs of ten containers each, numbered 1-10. In each run, the target will be present in one container only, and the other nine containers will be stabilized by eight ounces of flour.The containers will be prepared this way: In nine of the containers for each trial there will be eight ounces of flour. These are the dummy containers. In the remaining container there will be three ounces of flour plus the five-ounce target.All the flour dummies will be in plastic bags so transfer is easy. The target container will be determined by a random process. An individual we will call the randomizer will prepare the containers for each run; the dowser will have a representative who will verify that the container with the target actually does contain the target. This will be done by the randomizer’s, preparing five lists, consisting of numbers from 1-10. When the target container has been selected and prepared the randomizer will mark a T in the space opposite that number on the list; the dowser’s representative will initial the sheet to show that it is correct. At no time will the randomizer or the dowser’s representative be in verbal, electronic, or visual communication with the dowser; if the dowser somehow does come into contact with the randomizer or the representative, that run will be declared null and void.Before the test begins, the dowser will locate a specific spot on which all the containers will be placed, one at a time, for his dowsing test. The scale will be set up so that the dowser can attach his dowsing rod to it directly over the spot where the containers will be placed.The dowser will then move away to a waiting area and will be out of sight of the testing area at the beginning of each trial. The dowser will witness the recording of the dowser's readings by initialing each numbered list after the run of ten is complete.The randomizer will choose one of the containers in which to place the target for each run of ten. The randomizer will prepare the containers and mark the list; the dowser’s second representative will initial the list to signify that it is complete. The randomizer will signal (perhaps by blowing a whistle in a particular pattern: long-short-long, for example) the placement team when the containers are ready. The randomizer and second dowser’s representative will leave the area, and the placement team will then come to the preparation area and will one by one move the containers to the test spot for the dowsing attempt. The placement team will not know which container conceals the target. The placement team will take each container to the test site; place it on the test spot the dowser has located, and signal the dowser. Then the placement team will leave before the dowser arrives with his observer and the JREF observer(s).The dowser will use his dowsing rod on each container and will say whether the container does or does not contain the silver target.When the dowser has stated this, the observer will record his opinion on a sheet numbered 1-10. If the dowser says the target is present, the number corresponding to the container will be marked T. If not, the number will be marked 0. There can be only one T in each run of ten containers. Both the observer and the dowser will initial the finished test sheet after each run of ten.The process will be repeated five times, with the target randomly placed in a container for each time and with each container placed on the same spot for each dowsing attempt. After each container is removed, the placement team will wait a minimum of three minutes before placing the next container. After each run of ten dowsing attempts, the dowser will have a rest period of ten minutes.At the end of all 5 runs (50 dowsing trials), all participants will compare the observers' list with T marked to show which containers the dowser believes hold the target and the randomizer's record of which containers actually held the target. Until that time, the randomizer and dowser's representative will not communicate with the dowser and the I.I.G. observer in any way.To succeed, the dowser will have to correctly identify the target container four out of five times. If the dowser correctly identifies the target container three out of five times or less, that will be a failure.If I pass this preliminary the final for the Money will be a test of 100 passes with 7 out 0f 10 for the win.The time line for the final will be about 8 hours.
__________________Mm, I like your conspiracy theory. Your facts are so...twisted. Your drivel so mindless.
My time line is still September or October to actually have you test me.
If we do the
preliminary up here at Coffee creek at the Bonanza Creek Resort, I will pay for the stay of the testers.
I would like to do the final there too a few days later, if scheduling permits for you.
I have to work out the rental of the cabins at the resort with the owner and make sure that I can dredge there which will pay for the I.I.G.s representatives stay there.
I think that this is pretty clear.
Mike Guska
Last edited:
The JREF did not back out, edge.
Your application was terminated because you were unable to formulate coherent responses to simple inquiries and because you kept unnecessarily changing and introducing new elements to the test protocol.
You had another chance to get the Million in your hands.
You blew it.
Royally.
Your application was terminated because you were unable to formulate coherent responses to simple inquiries and because you kept unnecessarily changing and introducing new elements to the test protocol.
You had another chance to get the Million in your hands.
You blew it.
Royally.
Right, only I've been thinking after getting folks to send money the first time it'd be better to send the same answer to all of them on following weeks. If someone gets burned (which will be guaranteed if you send both answers) then it increases the chances the law gets involved, and if you're still operating on the other half that's dangerous exposure. If you just go with the line every week after that, you've got a fair chance to go for another week or two with gullible marks that are quite happy to send you money.
I've put far too much thought into that. Anyway, the idea is that given enough dowsers and enough clients, you're bound to end up with some amazing track records (and a whole pile of failures).
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
- Joined
- May 1, 2005
- Messages
- 12,512
Please go to this site:
http://audiomartini.podshowcreator.com/
And look for James Randi and listen.
Paul
http://audiomartini.podshowcreator.com/
And look for James Randi and listen.
Paul
Wrong, edge.
JREF and the TV producer both came to the conclusion that you weren't ready to test. That was the first and foremost complication. They obviously made a good call.
I also assume the test wasn't going to take place "on limestone just like in the office".
hopfen
devout agnostic
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
- Messages
- 69
Could be. I doubt if Japanese limestone is that much different.
EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
You mean the test he did in Ft Lauderdale, on limestone, that he failed? That test?
The TV producer offered this,
At a limestone quarry in Japan, the way the test was done at office the first time, all ten containers on the ground, at once.
About four hours split into two days or what ever they would accommodate.
The only thing that changed was from the creek bank to the quarry.
Time was not really an issue since it took about 4 hours at the JREF office.
I was never given an explanation of what that issue was?
Three days later after being turned down for that expedition I learned about the scales working in the calibration of the target and empties as I experimented.
This increased my odds to the degree of 60 to 90%.
I then changed the protocol to include that.
I had to think of time and place since that opportunity passed. They didn't come up with anything else so I worked on that.
The time-line for an opportunity came when the resort owner said I could dredge there, but not till after season which would be September.
That is the last month of dredging season up here the month of September.
If they couldn't do the test here, then October was the next window of opportunity, which would mean I would have to go to Florida.
I wrote that, pages ago on this post.
So common sense would indicate that we had a few more days to come to an agreement.
And up to a year really to come to an agreement on a date to actually do the test.
I won't accept a protocol that eliminates the scale as it is a major break through, and I won't take it indoors in an office or in a TV studio, And you know the reasons why.
The only thing left was the placebo targets and the time issue,
[length of the test, how much time] in the protocol that I had sent in.
Spectator wrote up the correct protocol and it included what I needed it also took care of both issues.
What good would it do to scan a TV studio and say there is no neutral ground just like in the office test at JREF headquarters even though I braved it at that time and took the test there the first time?
Just for their convenience to televise a failed attempt for the second time?
I don’t think so!