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Moderated Dowsing By Edge

Edge tell us seriously...

How bad has the testresult be before you admit to yourself that it is only ideomotor effect and nothing paranormal? Are you man enough to change your mind?
 
That’s not what happens when you mine, the law of average has nothing to do with it.
In mining, no, but that doesn't matter. You are not going to be mining. You are going to be dowsing for known objects. You have to find it a statistically significant number of times. Yeah, the law of averages does actually have something to do with that.

My percentage on the creek is way higher.
More like 85% correct in finding a good quantity.
And yes 10 targets in ten tries.
Once open and once closed.
I’ll do the open test one handed.
If you take the test (which I predict you won't) you will lose. (Also my prediction.) Prove me wrong.

Here’s rule 6 All of the applicant's expenses such as transportation, accommodation, materials, assistants, and/or all other costs for any persons or procedures incurred in pursuit of the reward, are the sole responsibility of the applicant. Neither the JREF nor JR will bear any of the costs.

Applicant's expenses...
You really need to work on your reading comprehension skills. ALL expenses are "applicant's expenses".

Not J.R.E.F. and if so I’ll need a couple of days into dredging season which starts July 1st. To accomplish their expenses with the ground that I’m going to, remember pounds, is my reading?
July 1st is one month away. You haven't even sent in your application yet. You have asked that the rules be changed for you. You have not described an appropriate double-blind protocol. I sense another of your excuses hurtling toward us.

And besides how could they not afford to travel in order to sell their ideas after all they are willing to give a million away you would think to promote themselves they could afford a motel or a camping trip?
They are not selling their ideas. They make no claims. They are testing your claims. They are not promoting themselves. We don't even know who "they" are.

One of the reasons these tests take time to set up is because JREF has to round up volunteers in the area to test you and then find a time when all of you can be there. I'm actually a volunteer for tests in my area, but you are not in my area. However, if you would agree to pay for my plane ticket, I'd come out and help test you, as long as JREF agreed. I wouldn't even charge you for lodging.

Never know who’s delusional and there you go calling names shame on you!
Yes, I call you delusional, but it is based on evidence. You failed the first test but instead of accepting the obvious, you lied, you made excuses, and you continue to believe. That is the hallmark of delusional behavior. And don't even get me started about your UFO delusions.

The testers are on the clock any way and getting out of the office is a good thing.
You are on the clock. Nothing will happen until you send in your application. Tick... tick... tick...

Tricky you act like you work for them, let’s see what they have to say, because I can always get Gary to test me.
I have said repeatedly and I say again that I do not represent JREF. My opinions are my own. But I am capable of understanding the rules and what a double blind test is. And my bet is the JREF won't have anything to say unless you send in the application. Get that through your thick skull.

Maybe Gary can test you, but can he give you a million dollars?

I can see why you’re so down on the idea of a possibility that this could work being the resident geologist and all. But that’s your problem.
Are you kidding? I'd LOVE for dowsing to work. It would make my job so much easier. But if it worked, mining and other types of geological companies would hire dowsers. They're in it to make money and a shortcut to money is something they'd welcome. Yet they don't hire dowsers. To a rational person, that would tell them something rather obvious. But that's your problem. You are not rational.

Then you don’t understand it, every dowser passes the preliminary test it’s the closed test that is the problem.
LOL. You really can't read with comprehension at all, can you? JREF runs the preliminary test. Not you. No dowser has ever passed the preliminary test. Did you look at those videos we linked?

It’s more like a clarification of the rules that’s all.

In other words they can have all the news they want but not the credit from the further knowledge or theory’s.
It is a request to change the rules, not a clarification. But it really doesn't matter. Why is it that you cannot understand (even though you've been told numerous times, even by Randi himself) that they don't want to hear your theories. All they care about is can you dowse successfully. If you succeed, you can clam up about how you did it. Sell them to a mining company if you can.
 
LOL. You really can't read with comprehension at all, can you? JREF runs the preliminary test. Not you. No dowser has ever passed the preliminary test. Did you look at those videos we linked?
I believe he got the terms 'preliminary test' and 'open test' confused.

He passed the 'open test' because he knew where the gold was; 10/10. Yet strangely enough, when the test was 'closed' and the preliminary test started, he performed no better than chance.

I've been following Edge's threads for a long time, but I dont remember ever seeing a good explanation for that one...

;)
 
I believe he got the terms 'preliminary test' and 'open test' confused.

He passed the 'open test' because he knew where the gold was; 10/10. Yet strangely enough, when the test was 'closed' and the preliminary test started, he performed no better than chance.
I believe you are correct.

I've been following Edge's threads for a long time, but I dont remember ever seeing a good explanation for that one...

;)
Actually he did explain it a long time ago. Maybe he hoped we would forget, but some of us have good memories. In discussing the open test later, he said that he knew something was wrong, but that he didn't want to stop the test because he didn't want to abort his chance at the million. He actually admitted that he lied to Randi at the time by telling him that everything was okay after the open test. Of course, he did not mention this to Randi at the time, so one would suspect that this is a post-hoc excuse.

Or perhaps more likely, Edge is so very deluded that he cannot actually remember exactly what he thought after the ten-for-ten open test, and he came up with the excuse only when he realized that he was caught in a logical contradiction. He's not stupid, just deluded.

But the fact remains clear. Either he lied when he told Randi that the conditions were okay after the open test, or he lied when he later said the conditions were not okay. That he cannot recognize this is further evidence of his self-delusion.
 
Edge tell us seriously...

How bad has the testresult be before you admit to yourself that it is only ideomotor effect and nothing paranormal? Are you man enough to change your mind?

How can it be paranormal when it's been explaned in medical terms?

I believe he got the terms 'preliminary test' and 'open test' confused.

So your saying I have to take the test open and closed more than once each?
 
So your saying I have to take the test open and closed more than once each?
The combination of an open and closed test is what constitutes the preliminary test. After that you have to go through the same again, but this time you have to do it with greater certainty (not accuracy) than before, which will probably mean that there will be more objects or whatever to dowse for, of which you have to do the same percentage as before. So, if you claim you can do 9 out of 10, and 10 was the number of objects for the preliminary test, for the final test, you might have to do 18 out of 20.
 
Edge tell us seriously...

How bad has the testresult be before you admit to yourself that it is only ideomotor effect and nothing paranormal? Are you man enough to change your mind?

How can it be paranormal when it's been explaned in medical terms?

So you agree that dowsing is a result of the ideomotor effect? Then why are you going to do the challenge?

I repeat and clearify myself in hope of an answer this time.

Edge tell us seriously...

How bad has the testresult be before you admit to yourself that dowsing doesn't work? Are you man enough to change your mind?
 
So your saying I have to take the test open and closed more than once each?
Yes, it's clearly stated in the rules. The "open" test is just the first part of both tests which asks you to dowse (or whatever it is you do) while you know the answers. Don't you remember when Randi showed you where the target was and then you (successfully) dowsed for it? That was the "open" part of the preliminary test.

The open test is to prevent the test-taker from making excuses later because the test-taker agreed their power was working fine. As you demonstrated, it does not keep a deluded person from making excuses anyway, but it does remove the credibility of the excuse-maker because either they were lying when they agreed their power was working or they were lying when they made the post-hoc excuses.
 
Tricky said,
(snip)

And besides how could they not afford to travel in order to sell their ideas after all they are willing to give a million away you would think to promote themselves they could afford a motel or a camping trip?
(snip)
And you say,
The testers are giving up their time without compensation. Nobody should have to shell out their own money to feed your delusions.

Never know who’s delusional and there you go calling names shame on you!
The testers are on the clock any way and getting out of the office is a good thing.

(snip)
Then you don’t understand it, every dowser passes the preliminary test it’s the closed test that is the problem.

(snip)

1. Edge, the observers who would be testing you in California are not employed by JREF. They are volunteers. They are unpaid volunteers. They have nothing to do with the million dollar prize. The million dollar prize is not the exclusive possession of JREF. JREF could not use the million dollars that is in the bank to buy a yacht for the organization. The money is earmarked. The donor(s) who gave it specified that it could only be used as the award in the event the JREF challenge was ever won. Please be clear on that.

2. The testers are not on the clock, if by that you mean they are earning money from the JREF. They are not employed by the JREF (see number 1 above). They are unpaid volunteers. JREF does not pay them. If you should pass the preliminary test, then JREF employees might administer the final test, but the initial testers do what they do out of the kindness of their hearts, not for a salary. When you took and failed your first preliminary dowsing test, you went to the JREF, so at THAT time you were tested by JREF employees, including the J himself. This time, way out in California, you would be tested by volunteers, not by anyone who works for the JREF. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but you need to understand this, so you can understand that the testers' expenses will not be paid by the JREF.

3. "...every dowser passes the preliminary test it’s the closed test that is the problem." You do not understand the difference between "preliminary test" and "open test." A preliminary test is made up of two stages: first a dry-run open test, to make sure that everything is working as the challenger expects it to, and then the closed test. These two parts, the open and the closed phase, make up the preliminary test. If you should achieve a success rate of ten out of then in this first, preliminary, set of an open and a closed run, THEN you would qualify for the final test, which would be more difficult. The JREF might, for example, ask you to make a run of 100 tests instead of ten tests, just to make sure the initial result was not a fluke.

I hope this helps. Hurry and get your application in.
 
I half suspect that if anyone were to actually pass the preliminary test, the JREF would be interested enough in the final outcome to facilitate the logistics behind the formal test.
 
I half suspect that if anyone were to actually pass the preliminary test, the JREF would be interested enough in the final outcome to facilitate the logistics behind the formal test.
Oh, I'm pretty sure they would, too. The problem is getting through the preliminary test first so this could happen, and no one will ever get through the preliminary test without first sending in a valid application.
 
...
That’s exactly right Ririon.
...
:eye-poppi :eek: :jaw-dropp

Well, hard to argue with that... I take that to mean that you agree 100 % with my posts. So you will do another run of blinded self-tests according to our suggestions, and then re-apply if (and only if) those tests are successful.

Good.

I wish you good luck, and look forward to hearing from you in a few days or weeks. Please post even if the tests are negative. They will be unless you cheat, cheat yourself or actually have supernatural powers.
 
I believe you are correct.


Actually he did explain it a long time ago. Maybe he hoped we would forget, but some of us have good memories. In discussing the open test later, he said that he knew something was wrong, but that he didn't want to stop the test because he didn't want to abort his chance at the million. He actually admitted that he lied to Randi at the time by telling him that everything was okay after the open test. Of course, he did not mention this to Randi at the time, so one would suspect that this is a post-hoc excuse.
Isn't this the same applicant who claimed the book with the gold colored printing on the cover (which is not made with real gold) interfered with his ability to detect real gold?

LLH
 
Isn't this the same applicant who claimed the book with the gold colored printing on the cover (which is not made with real gold) interfered with his ability to detect real gold?
He also included in his target material, Sacajawea dollar coins, which are gold-colored, but have no gold in them. And quartz crystals. Randi just put the whole load into the target cup just so Edge wouldn't have any excuses. But of course, he did anyway.
 
What the Sweet Sanfarian does this mean? Anyone?
"Not J.R.E.F. and if so I’ll need a couple of days into dredging season which starts July 1st. To accomplish their expenses with the ground that I’m going to, remember pounds, is my reading?"

I am guessing that he will use his talents to earn the money needed to cover his expenses in "a couple of days". But I must admit that those "collections of words" don't make much sense to me. I refuse to refer to them as "sentences". I do of course admit that English is not my native language, so if anybody can accurately interpret this grammar and word usage completely unknown to me, my apologies will follow shortly.
 
Edge said:
"Not J.R.E.F. and if so I’ll need a couple of days into dredging season which starts July 1st. To accomplish their expenses with the ground that I’m going to, remember pounds, is my reading?"

I am guessing that he will use his talents to earn the money needed to cover his expenses in "a couple of days". But I must admit that those "collections of words" don't make much sense to me. I refuse to refer to them as "sentences". I do of course admit that English is not my native language, so if anybody can accurately interpret this grammar and word usage completely unknown to me, my apologies will follow shortly.
That's pretty much the way I interpreted it too. Your knowledge of English is far better than Edge's (and many other Americans'). That phrase does set some sort of mark for incomprehensibility though.

However, Edge is, by all appearances, undereducated, so I cut him a little slack. On the plus side, he'll rarely say you've misinterpreted him, possibly because even he isn't sure what he meant.
 
Should have read like this,
Applicant’s expenses,
Not J.R.E.Fs., and if so I’ll need a couple of days into dredging season which starts July 1st. To accomplish their expenses, with the ground that I’m going to, remember pounds, is my reading?

This spot that I Talk about might have been posted in the Seeing is believing thread.
I'll post it here.
I'll be back.
 

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