Does 'rape culture' accurately describe (many) societies?

[Darat]

Lack of engagement is clear evidence of an awareness that one's rebuttal is inadequate.

I have fully engaged with you over many months, but it has become obvious that I cannot communicate with you regarding complex and subtle matters, I am not going to merely repeat what I have already posted until eternity passes.

 

[theprestige]

Lack of engagement is clear evidence of an awareness that one's rebuttal is inadequate.

It's the reasons for the inadequacy that matter. Sometimes the best choice you can make in life is to realize that you'll never measure up to someone's unreasonable expectations, and stop trying so hard to engage with them.

"People don't engage with me because they know how inadequate they are," says the malignant narcissist.

"People don't engage with me because they know all their rebuttals are inadequate," says the KGB goon.

"People don't engage with me because they know they'd be inadequate once I start hitting them," says the social media bully, on camera, as he walks around town harassing and intimidating people who don't engage out of an awareness that their fear and loathing of him is utterly inadequate to reach whatever shred of humanity might yet remain in the depths of his black heart.

 

[Lithrael]

I have posted examples of people charged under the law, in the UK, for posession of non-photographic simulated CSAM that they appear to have got off the internet. No children were harmed in its production since no children were involved. The important part to the law still seems to me to be an actual intent/appearance of CSAM.

I really genuinely think where this is breaking down for Poem is the difference between dressing up an adult a bit for studio porn in maybe bad taste, and simulated CSAM. I say they're not the same in the eyes of the law, Poem says prove it, I say I can really only show you strong implications for it from where I'm standing.

 

[arthwollipot]

There is something about sex that is awkward for the pro-porn narrative.

What is that, exactly?

 

[catsmate]

The Beatles: "Why don't we do it in the road?"

There are places where nudity and sexual contacts in public are OK.

 

[catsmate]

There is something about sex that is awkward for the pro-porn narrative.

Will you be supporting this assertion with evidence?

 

[catsmate]

Lack of engagement is clear evidence of an awareness that one's rebuttal is inadequate.

Don't be silly, it's understanding that you aren't interested in reasoned argument.

 

[arthwollipot]

I've said it before - don't mistake disinclination to engage for capitulation.

 

[Poem]

No it doesn't. Culpability means guilty of a crime. Doing something legal within your jurisdiction does not make you culpable of a crime because a person viewed it where it is a crime.

Your faith in SCOTUS is...curious.

 

[Lithrael]

Further to this, for a parallel example: If an item is legal to mail in country a and illegal in general in country b, and someone from country a mails it to country b and describes it accurately on the customs form, typically all that happens is the item is siezed and destroyed at the border. The person mailing it doesn't typically face legal penalties.

 

[Poem]

I for one don't agree that the per se legitimacy of something can be questioned just because it might lead to a chain reaction that results in a negative outcome somewhere far down the line of alleged causality.

Operating an automobile can allow for drunk driving can lead to death of innocent bystanders. This does not call into question the per se legitimacy of driving a car. It might, however, call for strict(er) regulation of the activity.

In many cases, the per se legitimacy of something is related to its overall risk/reward to society. Risk from improper use of cars is less than the overall benefit to society of having such transportation options widely available to everyone. On the other hand, one could argue that the overall impact from emissions, infrastructure requirements, and radical recontextualization of the social fabric, taken together, calls into question the per se legitimacy of POVs.

In other cases, the per se legitimacy of something is axiomatic. The right to free speech, for example, is held by many (most? almost all?) to be axiomatically legitimate per se. No amount of bad speech or consequences of bad speech can call into question the per se legitimacy of the right to free speech.

Which brings us back to the question of strict scrutiny, when proposing to regulate things that are axiomatically legitimate, like pornographic expressions.

Perhaps you could clarify this pov considering your:

I'm saying that if you're passing laws to help women in poverty, maybe pass something more helpful than legalized prostitution. Also "prostitution is the last refuge of desparate women" kind of undercuts the "prostitution is healthy and pro-social" marketing campaign.

Porn is a form of prostitution.

 

[catsmate]

Perhaps you could clarify this pov considering your:

Porn is a form of prostitution.

Opinion.

 

[Poem]

Opinion.

And what is your opinion?

Porn (often) involves people having sex for money.

 

[theprestige]

Perhaps you could clarify this pov considering your:

I don't see how I can make my POV on the regulation of porn any clearer. Is there something specific about it that isn't clear to you?

Porn is a form of prostitution.

Please tell me what this makes unclear for you, about my POV, and I'll try to clarify as best I can.

 

[Poem]

I don't see how I can make my POV on the regulation of porn any clearer. Is there something specific about it that isn't clear to you?

Please tell me what this makes unclear for you, about my POV, and I'll try to clarify as best I can.

You appear to be drawing a distinction between porn and prostitution - yet their overlap is pretty comprehensive. You say this about prostitution:

I'm saying that if you're passing laws to help women in poverty, maybe pass something more helpful than legalized prostitution. Also "prostitution is the last refuge of desperate women" kind of undercuts the "prostitution is healthy and pro-social" marketing campaign.

...yet you won't retrospectively say it about porn it would seem. If prostitution were legal (in the USA), would you be calling for a ban? Perhaps you could explore why you think it's different?

 

[theprestige]

You appear to be drawing a distinction between porn and prostitution - yet their overlap is pretty comprehensive. You say this about prostitution:

...yet you won't retrospectively say it about porn it would seem. If prostitution were legal (in the USA), would you be calling for a ban? Perhaps you could explore why you think it's different?

You seem to have retained an unstated assumption. How are you getting from my opinion about prostitution to a ban on prostitution?

 

[Poem]

You seem to have retained an unstated assumption.

Unstated assumption? What exactly?

How are you getting from my opinion about prostitution to a ban on prostitution?

Because you clearly don't think prostitution is a good solution to poverty. What about:

Also "prostitution is the last refuge of desperate women" kind of undercuts the "prostitution is healthy and pro-social" marketing campaign.

is pro-prositutuon?

Are you pro-prostitution or not? I asked you what you think the differences with porn are.

 

[theprestige]

Unstated assumption? What exactly?

I don't know, exactly, because it's unstated. That's why I asked the clarifying question.

Because you clearly don't think prostitution is a good solution to poverty.

No. I clearly don't think "poverty" is a good rationale for legalizing prostitution, if you're generally against legalizing prostitution. That's all I said, there.

What about:

is pro-prositutuon?

Nothing. I'm not a big fan of prostitution as a career path.

Are you pro-prostitution or not?

Overall, I'm agnostic. I wouldn't recommend it, but I don't think it should be banned outright.

I asked you what you think the differences with porn are.

I think live-action pornography is a subset of prostitution. Beyond that, I'm not interested in taxonomic discussions.

I also think live-action pornography is a form of free expression, and therefore should be regulated with caution and restraint, regardless of whether I think people are well-advised to take up pornography or prostitution as a career.

 

[Poem]

Nothing. I'm not a big fan of prostitution as a career path.

What about prostitution and porn informs that pov?

 

[theprestige]

What about prostitution and porn informs that pov?

Nothing that leads me to disagree with any of the following:

• Porn does not engender "rape culture".
• Legal adults portraying legal adults doing legal sex acts is not CSAM, and is not a slippery slope to CSAM.
• A slippery slope argument does not call into question the a priori value of freedom of expression.

If you have an argument to make against any of those propositions, make it. In your own words. What's your conclusion, what's your evidence, and what's your reasoning that leads to that conclusion?