Does Israel Have The Right To Exist?

Does Israel have the right to exist?


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Given that this was the question:

...can you provide evidence of widespread Arab/Islamic hate for Jews that predates the formation of Israel?

I think the answer of giving you the quran to check out was specific enough.

Surely you can provide something more specific.

As to this question:

Since when do passages from the koran equal the widespread attitudes of muslims? Do you try to draw this link with any other religions and thier books?

You need to read the question and answer again, mate. I was providing evidence of widespread hate for Jews prior to 1948. Given that many muslims have chosen to interpret Mohammed's race-hatred as spiritual guidance, I think it satisfies the question. It's akin to asking whether Jews have been a xenophobic people prior to 1948. Using the bible, I could correctly answer "yes".
 
You need to read the question and answer again, mate. I was providing evidence of widespread hate for Jews prior to 1948. Given that many muslims have chosen to interpret Mohammed's race-hatred as spiritual guidance, I think it satisfies the question. It's akin to asking whether Jews have been a xenophobic people prior to 1948. Using the bible, I could correctly answer "yes".
No...its like pointing to Deuteronomy to provide evidence of Christian attitudes to gays pre 1948. It is not evidence about Christian attitudes to anything in modern times....Neither are passages in the Koran. The Koran contains hate speech just like other religions books. I think you need to look at actual actions of people for evidence of thier attitudes.
 
No...its like pointing to Deuteronomy to provide evidence of Christian attitudes to gays pre 1948. It is not evidence about Christian attitudes to anything in modern times....Neither are passages in the Koran. The Koran contains hate speech just like other religions books. I think you need to look at actual actions of people for evidence of thier attitudes.

I could point to Deuteronomy right now to provide evidence of some christians' attitudes towards gays. Or does Fred Phelps not make your neck of the woods? (Also, N.B. we weren't talking about modern attitudes.)

People have followed the orders of their holy books for thousands of years. Maybe you'd like to argue that race-hate hasn't grown out of those holy texts? I'm not sure whether you're being deliberately obtuse here, so let me know if there's still doubt that both the bible and quran have produced racists and anti-semites.

Indulge me and cite some specific Koranic verses at least please.

How many would you like?

Allah said:
The Jews do not follow anything (good)
The Cow 2.113

Allah said:
Jews ...Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief
The Women 4.46

Allah said:
for the iniquity of those who are Jews
The Women 4.116

Allah said:
do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends
Dinner Table 5.51

Allah said:
Jews ... may Allah destroy them...
The Immunity 9.30

Allah said:
O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death If you are truthful
The Congregation 62.6

That do for starters?
 
Purchases were made by the Jewish National Fund, from the titled landowners, starting in the 1880's and right on through the decades of the 1920's and 30's, when the Administration of the region transferred to various Mandated Powers (France, Britain). It should not be forgotten that it was not only palestine which was revamped and apportioned from the Ottoman Empire ---- also Syria, Mesopotamia, Lebanon, Trans-Jordan and other areas underwent border alterations and land redistribution.

Until the end of WW1, the governmental authority was the Turkish Sultanate.
Were you unaware of that, Solitaire?

And it was the Arabs who helped remove the Ottoman/Turkish empire, and expected independence for doing so. Instead the European powers ratted on the deal.
 
There is no official, existing map of Israel today. It is a hodge-podge of treaty borders (including an exchange of territory with Jordan in the Arava Desert region), and numerous cease-fire lines & UN-marked boundries (following the San Remo Demarcations, for example, at Lebanon) and self-designated barriers & security roads (along various seams).
Israel's land area is in constant flux and will continue to be adjusted according to the outcomes of negotiations with Israels peaceful neighbors who have not, as yet, all decided that peace is preferable to war. The map of Israel is a brief snapshot in time, but is not a constant thing set in stone, and Israelis do not claim it to be. We are prepared to redraw the map at any time, so long as across the border, we don't face attempts again by our neighbors to build up forces whose publicly-stated aim is to kill us whenever the opportunity presents itself.

(see: Lebanon Battles, 2006, and the still-missing Goldwasser & Regev)

For the better part of 130 years, since the 1880's when the Zionist Congress proposed making a concentrated and determined effort to re-settle "palestine" --- there has been no official map of Israel. As I showed in my earlier posting, HERE, #49 the "official map of Israel" (in 1947) looks very different than what Israel encompasses today. What the Arabs are proposing, essentially, is a return to this map of 1947-1949. Yes, a_u_p, that is a fact. The Arabs are saying that they will only "recognize" Israel after a full withdrawal to the 1949 lines (they phrase it as the "1967 Borders" but that is a lie), which for all intents and purposes, is the land area defined in the blue map. (Which, if you don't recognize it, is the jewish-populated section allocated as a "jewish state" within the 1947 UN partition plan)


And it was the Arabs who helped remove the Ottoman/Turkish empire, and expected independence for doing so. Instead the European powers ratted on the deal.

Incorrect totally. Both the Mandate Powers, France and Britain, relinquished their holds on large swaths of "palestine" (and the surrounding Ottoman sanjaks) to Arabs and independent States came about (specifically, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia,). This whole idea that you seem to cling to that "palestine" is just the narrow strip on the coast of the Mediterranean, is completely mistaken, a_u_p.


thinkingaboutit proposes:
My thesis is that Palestine/Israel is at the heart of the Arab Jewish conflict

No.
Islamic fundamentalism and the overall "dhimmi" attitude towards jews is at the core. The idea that jews would stand on their own, and defend themselves adequately, and were creating an alternative to being subservient and persecuted within the Islamic societies, is an anathema to the Islamic world.

There is no evidence to suggest that Israel is about land, per se. On the contrary, there is plenty of empirical evidence to show that Israel has relinquished (more than once) valuable land areas, and is fully prepared to do so again, under the right conditions.
 
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thinkingaboutit proposes:

No.
Islamic fundamentalism and the overall "dhimmi" attitude towards jews is at the core. The idea that jews would stand on their own, and defend themselves adequately, and were creating an alternative to being subservient and persecuted within the Islamic societies, is an anathema to the Islamic world.

There is no evidence to suggest that Israel is about land, per se. On the contrary, there is plenty of empirical evidence to show that Israel has relinquished (more than once) valuable land areas, and is fully prepared to do so again, under the right conditions.

This seems rather absurd to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
 
more thinking required

What part of my post seems absurd to you?

The part about the traditional Dhimmitude or the part about the Israelis giving up land?


Your link to WIKI article contains the following, inter alia:
Jews... had the legal status of dhimmi ... As dhimmi, Jews were typically subjected to several restrictions, the application and severity of which varied by time and place: residency in segregated quarters, obligation to wear distinctive clothing, public subservience to Muslims, prohibitions against proselytizing and marrying Muslim women (according to Islam, a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man), and limited access to the legal systems.
 
Let me ask you this webfusion. If the Jews 'creating an alternative to being subservient and persecuted' was anathema to Muslim Arabs, why did the Arabs then go and expel Jews from their land where presumably these people would still be under their thumb? Wouldn't they seek to hinder the escape of Jews in an effort to maintain their control?
 
Oh and also wasn't the land of Israel key to the creation of such an alternative, kind of putting land at the very heart of the issue whether you want it to be there or not?
 
Why is the small nation of Israel bothering the Arabs who have 21 nations, wealth beyond their wildest dreams, and no shortage of land?

Let me ask you this webfusion. If the Jews 'creating an alternative to being subservient and persecuted' was anathema to Muslim Arabs, why did the Arabs then go and expel Jews from their land where presumably these people would still be under their thumb? Wouldn't they seek to hinder the escape of Jews in an effort to maintain their control?

I don't understand the question.
 
Why is the small nation of Israel bothering the Arabs who have 21 nations, wealth beyond their wildest dreams, and no shortage of land?

I've always wondered about this. If the Arabs want so badly to give Palenstinians a place of their own, why can't they set aside a small area of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq....?


It's like my kids fighting over where to sit at the dinner table. The table is huge, with 5 empty seats, but they have to fight over the same seat.
 
Why did the Arabs kick Jews out of their countries in 1948 when according to you Arabs wanted to maintain their control over Jews?


As well I'd argue that the empirical evidence you suggest is available (offers of pieces of land) wouldn't be valid evidence to test whether it's about land unless Israel offered the whole of Israel back to the Palestinians.
 
I've always wondered about this. If the Arabs want so badly to give Palenstinians a place of their own, why can't they set aside a small area of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq....?


It's like my kids fighting over where to sit at the dinner table. The table is huge, with 5 empty seats, but they have to fight over the same seat.

You have to realize that during the 1948 war alone, over 700000 Palestinians were expelled from their own property in Israel. I'm not saying people shouldn't be charitable and ready to offer alternatives but I don't see Canadians for example being cool with giving a hunk of land over to Rwandan refugees (for example) in order for them to have their own state. sourcing my claim see Laila Parsons, "The Druze and the birth of Israel," in Rogan and Shlaim, War, chap. 3, and Ben-Eliezer, Making, pp. 170-81

Also I think it'd be a more complete comparison on your part if you said it's like your 5 kids fighting over the 4 bikes left after someone has taken one of their bikes.
 
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thinkingaboutit asks:
Why did the Arabs kick Jews out of their countries in 1948 when according to you Arabs wanted to maintain their control over Jews?

According to me? I said that the jews were not looked upon with any favor or respect, and that the jews were "dhimmis" and suffered systematic and sometimes violent persecution --- in any case, the arabs didn't kick out jews in 1948. You should investigate the facts in more detail.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Immigration/carpet.html
(Yemen)
Yemeni persecution of Jews prompted a trickle of Jewish emigration to Palestine from the third quarter of the nineteenth century on. In 1949, 46,000 of the country's 47,000 jews left for Israel on Operation Magic Carpet.

also,
Attacks on Jewish quarters in Tripoli and other Libyan cities occurred in 1945, leading to a death toll the British put at 130 Jews.

also,
Rioting in Cairo against Jews occurred in November 1945.

also,
As in Yemen and Libya, crude pressure on the Jews of Syria --- such as the 1947 pogrom in Aleppo and the rape and murder of four Jewish girls who allegedly tried to smuggle themselves out of Syria --- caused a substantial emigration.

also,
Laws in 1950 and 1951 deprived Jews of their Iraqi nationality and their property in Iraq.



Now, your statement of "over 700,000 Palestinians were expelled from their own property in Israel" is not accurate, on several levels.

1. Arabs who fled (many fled on their own at the urging of their fellow arabs) did not leave palestine. They simply moved to another part of palestine, in most cases, less than 100 miles from their homes, or returned to the arab nations from where their families originally lived (see #2).

2. Most palestinians did not own any land, and the majority of them were themselves recent arrivals from surrounding arab lands during the period after WW1 and WW11 (25 years or so). In other words, most of these 1948 refugee palestinians were not "natives" to the area to begin with, and had only immigrated to palestine because there was work (as a result of the zionist renaissance and the rebuilding of the jewish homeland).

3. There was no "palestinian property" collectively, and there still isn't.
They wish to establish a national land, and Israel is trying to help them do so, but the way to do so involves peaceful negotiations, not threats and violence.
It is not very honest of people to say "palestinian lands" when in fact, such a thing is a myth.
 
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I've always wondered about this. If the Arabs want so badly to give Palenstinians a place of their own, why can't they set aside a small area of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq....?


In reality, Israel has no major objections to the palestinians setting up a State of their own in the territory where they live now, in Gaza and the West Bank. The quid pro quo for that is Israel wants to avoid allowing a full-fledged terrorist-based Islamic-Jihadist State as a neighbor. Been there, done that. (see: Egypt & Syria, 1967). The jews of "palestine" have faced islamic terror for 125 years, and will probably face it for another 125, but that doesn't mean the jews have to like it or accept it meekly.
 
And the Arab League in 2002 and now again have offered full recognition of Israel in return for Israel going back to 1967 borders and acceptance of the right of return.
 

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