Does Israel Have The Right To Exist?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

I don't understand how anyone can oppose the right for a country to exist. Maybe oppose their laws or policies but not their right to exist. Let me explain. I understand that Palestinians believe the land that Israel occupies is their land and they believe it belongs to them. However what I don't understand is their approach to being able to occupy the land, Nor Israels approach. Both the Israelis and Palestinians assume that they have some inherent 'right' to occupy the land. However this reasoning is always flawed. The correct way to solve this problem is for both Israel and Palestine to abandon claims of 'sovereignty' and simply allow anyone who wants to sell land in Israel or Palestine to sell it and anyone who wants to buy it to buy it. Sort of like how our system works. Also I believe that anyone should be able to run for office in Israel and should be able to work to change the laws that they oppose, still keeping intact a democratic constitution that guarantees specific rights to all. Very similar to how the U.S. works.

Now, I don't know the laws of Palestine or Israel. However I also don't see how this whole "Israeli-Palestinian' conflict would even exist if they followed the same system that the U.S. follows. In the U.S. we don't have two groups of people arguing over inherent rights to specific lands (excluding maybe native Americans). We don't have people killing each other because they believe they have a 'right' to own specific land. If they have a dispute over land they generally sue each other.

 

[The Fool]

He did not claim that anyone in this forum called Jews pigs and monkeys.

I didn't claim that he did. Frankly son, I don't particularly care if my answers confuse you... If web needs clarification I'm sure he will ask.

 

[Mycroft]

I didn't claim that he did. Frankly son, I don't particularly care if my answers confuse you... If web needs clarification I'm sure he will ask.

Then why would it be relevent to say that nobody on this forum called Jews "pigs and monkeys"?

And if you personally have seen things written about Palestinians that you object to, isn't it also relevent to point out that objectionable things have also been written about Jews? After all, your whole point was that you claim to have seen one type of comment but not the other?

 

[casebro]

Wait a minute.
Purchased the land from whom?
And under what governmental authority permitted these purchases?
More importantly, how did these legal agreements entitle the formation of a country?

The have owned land there since biblical times. So, they bought some more farms from some of the Arab farmers. The bought some more houses from some Arab homeowners. Some apartment buiding, and other income property too.

When do you think private ownership of land in Palestine, by Jews, would have been outlawed?

Land ownership didn't entitle the Jews to start a country. Power did. Just like the way any other country started. Might makes right then, still does today. But today, we have "The Mighty U.N." (tm) to ensure nationalities ( a joke). And the mighty USA. North Korea was founded with backing from the Mighty China. The USA founded their country with the backing of the Mighty French. The Americans took the place from the Indians, by Might. The Isreali's have the power to kick the Palestinian's collective asses, they have done so how many times now?

I guess the real question should be "Should the rest of the world allow the Palestinians to waste their national resouces to get their A's kicked some more?" or should we allow the Jews to handle it, in a more traditional, and more permanent way?

 

[webfusion]

Wait a minute.
Purchased the land from whom?
And under what governmental authority permitted these purchases?
More importantly, how did these legal agreements entitle the formation of a country?

Purchases were made by the Jewish National Fund, from the titled landowners, starting in the 1880's and right on through the decades of the 1920's and 30's, when the Administration of the region transferred to various Mandated Powers (France, Britain). It should not be forgotten that it was not only palestine which was revamped and apportioned from the Ottoman Empire ---- also Syria, Mesopotamia, Lebanon, Trans-Jordan and other areas underwent border alterations and land redistribution.

Until the end of WW1, the governmental authority was the Turkish Sultanate.
Were you unaware of that, Solitaire?

As to the "formation of a country" you can quickly reference the historical facts ---- in the decades following the First World War, many midEastern sanjaks and territories of the defunct Ottomans became nations. To tell the truth, 75% of the Jewish National Home (as promised when the Mandate was granted to Britain) suddenly was wrenched from the traditional area of "Palestine" and given to a Bedouin nomadic tribe of Hashemites, whose leader, the Caliph of Amman, Hussein bin-Ali, declared himself king of the Hejaz, and the eastern 75% of "palestine" is ruled by his descendants to this very day!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein_bin_Ali,_Sharif_of_Mecca

Dustin makes an interesting point, about suing in court to establish claim to specific lands. In fact, in Israel, that is done quite often. Right now, there is a house near Hebron (which is not in Israel) which has a legal imbroglio about who really owns it ---
According to spokesman David Wilder, representatives of the Jewish community of Hebron purchased the building through an office in Jordan for the sum of $700,000.

Did the Arab sellers have a proper registered title? That is being investigated right now.
(Land sales to jews is a crime punishable by death in Jordan, BTW)

 

[webfusion]

The entire post of The Fool # 57 makes little sense, from start to finish. I just thought it best to ignore the ramblings contained within that posting, because there was just too much nonsense to reply to. Mycroft took a fair shot at it, and see what he got for the effort -- more doubletalk. Oh well...

 

[thinkingaboutit]

The obvious solution is for a more welcoming attitude towards jews, by islam.

As long as there is islamic fundamentalism which preaches far and wide that the jews are "sons of monkeys and pigs" -- then the issues that exist in Palestine will not be resolved. I have said it before and I will say it here again:

This is not a land dispute.

The hatred goes both ways and whatever else it is, it is definitely a land dispute.

 

[Dustin Kesselberg]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussein_bin_Ali,_Sharif_of_Mecca

Dustin makes an interesting point, about suing in court to establish claim to specific lands. In fact, in Israel, that is done quite often. Right now, there is a house near Hebron (which is not in Israel) which has a legal imbroglio about who really owns it ---
According to spokesman David Wilder, representatives of the Jewish community of Hebron purchased the building through an office in Jordan for the sum of $700,000.

Did the Arab sellers have a proper registered title? That is being investigated right now.
(Land sales to jews is a crime punishable by death in Jordan, BTW)

I oppose discrimination on the basis of race or religion and believe that if an Arab or Muslim wants to buy land in Israel then he or she should be able to. Same applies to an Israeli or Jew in Palestine.

I also oppose one race or religion or ethnic identity making a 'monopoly' out of any government. I believe that anyone should be able to run for office in Israel or Palestine.

The entire conflict seems to be centered upon the assertion that either the Palestinians or the Israelis have a right to Palestine or Israel while I don't believe anyone has an 'inherent' right to any land unless they legally own it. In which case they should be able to sell it to anyone else.

 

[The Fool]

The entire post of The Fool # 57 makes little sense, from start to finish. I just thought it best to ignore the ramblings contained within that posting, because there was just too much nonsense to reply to. Mycroft took a fair shot at it, and see what he got for the effort -- more doubletalk. Oh well...

ok...I'll leave you to it then. Someone else can take over trying to get you beyond anti-semitism as a source of conflict in the middle east.

 

[thinkingaboutit]

webfusion, can you provide evidence of widespread Arab/Islamic hate for Jews that predates the formation of Israel?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Then your answer to Webfusion makes no sense. He did not claim that anyone in this forum called Jews pigs and monkeys.

Plenty of people have demonized them in other ways in these forums, though.

Yeah, ya go to a Kosher Deli and ya can't get a decent ham and cheese on rye.

Fer cryin out loud!

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

webfusion, can you provide evidence of widespread Arab/Islamic hate for Jews that predates the formation of Israel?

Barbara Tuchman covered a bit of that in Bible and Sword, her history covering the founding of Israel. The core bitterness seems to have been born in the generation between 1917 and 1948, when the Brits tried to massage a deal after they had offered a variety of old Ottoman lands to more than one party in a number of neighborhoods in the Mid East. As you can see, their brokering failed.

DR

 

[thinkingaboutit]

Yes my point is it's a real mistake to suggest Arab-Israeli relations were nearly as bad pre 1948 as they are today. Half the world's Jews lived in Muslim lands in the 1800's. Israel has been and is the main source of tension between Arabs and Jews today.

 

[The Atheist]

... can you provide evidence of widespread Arab/Islamic hate for Jews that predates the formation of Israel?

1000 years long enough?

 

[thinkingaboutit]

1000 years long enough?

Surely you can provide something more specific.

 

[The Fool]

1000 years long enough?

Since when do passages from the koran equal the widespread attitudes of muslims? Do you try to draw this link with any other religions and thier books?

Remember its not god who hates anything its the humans that wrote gods words. Hatred of people outside the sect seems to be encouraged in all major Abrahamic religious books but the mass of people often don't think the same or to the same extreme degree....Haven't had a good stoning in my home town for weeks....

 

[Mycroft]

webfusion, can you provide evidence of widespread Arab/Islamic hate for Jews that predates the formation of Israel?

http://72.32.2.238/forumlive/search.php?searchid=756930&pp=25&page=4

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007255

 

[Mycroft]

ok...I'll leave you to it then. Someone else can take over trying to get you beyond anti-semitism as a source of conflict in the middle east.

First of all it's amazingly dishonest to say that Webfusion can't see other sources to the conflict. He's spoken about them at length.

Second, Islamic fundamentalism is a very significant contributor to the problem.

Or do you deny that?

 

[thinkingaboutit]

http://72.32.2.238/forumlive/search.php?searchid=756930&pp=25&page=4

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007255

Work with me here. My thesis is that Palestine/Israel is at the heart of the Arab Jewish conflict contrary to webfusion's claims. I asked for evidence and you link me to a guy who's main problem is with Zionism?

From your link

As an ardent opponent of Zionism and the British Mandate in Palestine, he championed pan-Arab nationalism and independence.

Can we see how things were as bad between Arabs and Jews before the issue of Zionism came into play? That's what I'm looking for as it would support webfusion's claims and refute mine. (and I could learn something)

 

[davefoc]

Didn't vote since I don't care for any of your choices. And you must check out other polls here and remember to add the "Planet X" option...

My vote would have been "Yes, but with shared control of Jerusalem and a negotiated boundary for the West Bank, a limited right to return, and full diplomatic recognition by the Arab and Muslim world.

This was exactly my view, but I voted for the third option, " Yes, but they should return to the 1948 borders" as most representative of my view among the available options.

I was very surprised to see the drive them back into the see option standing at 20%. After several years of participating in Israel/Palestine conflict threads I have never seen anyone actually argue for that.

I tend not to believe that the actual number is anywhere near that high. One of the things about JREF polls is there seems to be a high percentage of people who just like to pick the most extreme option and vote for it. I think we should call that the Scrut vote in honor of the JREF participant who routinely admits to doing that.