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Does "I" Exist? Or, Just a Concept?

Mercutio said:
Let me guess...

By now, you believe the coyote was real, but the wall is illusory.
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When I die and become a spirit I won't have to worry about kicking the wall. I might be a bit more careful with coyotes, however, lest I get eaten!
 
Mercutio said:
Seriously, Iacchus, follow the link to the mind-brain-consciousness seminar, click on the second session, and look at about the second half, Susan Blackmore's presentation.

Do it.
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If you have to look through a telescope in order to see the stars, you must acknowledge the telescope is there, otherwise you won't see them.
 
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Iacchus said:
When I die and become a spirit I won't have to worry about kicking the wall. I might be a bit more careful with coyotes, however, lest I get eaten!
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Note: You did not address the actual comment.
Iacchus said:
If have to look through a telescope in order to see the stars, you must acknowledge the telescope is there, otherwise you won't see them.
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Note: Your post not only does not address the comment, it strains belief that you actually read the comment at all. You have not had the time to have actually watched Susan Blackmore's presentation, so one wonders what basis you have for your comment at all. None, likely.
 
Tricky said:
Well, there you go. You know how you're always talking about how dreams are a different reality? There's your evidence on how wrong that is. Dreams are simply undirected imagination, not reality. The wall you kicked shows that you were existing in the same old reality you always exist in. C'est domage.
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Yes, and I wasn't the least bit aware that the wall existed, until after I kicked it. Now, if I happened to be in the spirit, and long since died, there would be no wall to kick. I would still have to contend with the coyote, however.
 
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bruto said:
You are, as usual, missing the question. I do not dispute your existence. I want to know on what grounds you assert that the so-called ghost in the machine, by which you presumably mean identity or consciousness, occupies the whole body. That is a very specific assertion, and I am asking whether this is something for which you have some kind of evidence or authority, or just another idea you've decided on.
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I had this experience once, when I thought I had died and gone to heaven.
 
Mercutio said:
Note: You did not address the actual comment.

Note: Your post not only does not address the comment, it strains belief that you actually read the comment at all. You have not had the time to have actually watched Susan Blackmore's presentation, so one wonders what basis you have for your comment at all. None, likely.
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And what you don't understand is that the mind is an instrument, and the only means we have by which to view anything. This is our lense to reality.
 
Iacchus said:
And what you don't understand is that the mind is an instrument, and the only means we have by which to view anything. This is our lense to reality.
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Please, Iacchus. Please. Watch the video. Susan Blackmore's stuff. Starts about halfway through the second segment.

She started her journey because of an out-of-body experience--she meditates--she asks the questions that you claim to be interested in.

There is no reason for you to avoid watching. And there is no question at all, given your comment, that you have not watched it yet.

If you refuse to watch it, could you at least have the integrity to explain clearly why you do so?
 
Mercutio said:
Please, Iacchus. Please. Watch the video. Susan Blackmore's stuff. Starts about halfway through the second segment.

She started her journey because of an out-of-body experience--she meditates--she asks the questions that you claim to be interested in.

There is no reason for you to avoid watching. And there is no question at all, given your comment, that you have not watched it yet.

If you refuse to watch it, could you at least have the integrity to explain clearly why you do so?
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Are you familiar with Dr. Judith Orloff? She speaks of a very similar journey, yet draws a different conclusion.
 
And according to what I've read in her books, this is not untypical of the types of experiences Dr. Orloff is accustomed to having.

From her conversation with Walter Jacobson, M.D.

Re-printed from the Newsletter of the Southern California Psychiatric Society
Volume 49, Number 2, October 2000

Jacobson: Perhaps we could start by you describing what you do and how you apply it in a psychiatric practice setting.

Orloff: What I do is called intuitive healing. It’s bringing intuition into the practice of psychiatry and medicine. What that means is that I listen to every kind of linear, logical, rational, analytic piece of information that comes in, but I’m also aware of images, impressions, gut feelings, sights, smells, sounds, and senses of energy that I get in my body which help to add to the diagnosis. It’s not at all divorcing us from our analytic training. It’s about integrating new tools along with what we’ve learned traditionally.

Jacobson: A patient comes in and says he’s depressed. Is there a different way you’d do the initial assessment?

Orloff: It’s about intuitive listening. It’s more than going down the list of signs and symptoms. It’s about me listening to other forms of intuitive input that could come in at that time that could help lend more depth and richness to what they’re presenting. For instance, I had a patient, whom I knew very, very well. She came in and was talking about some stress symptoms at work. I was listening to her and suddenly had a premonition or a knowing that she had cancer, and it came to me very clearly and it had nothing to do with what she was saying. At that point, of course, I didn’t interrupt her and say, by the way, I think you have cancer; but what I did do was I suggested that she go for a physical exam. She did, and they found a mass in her breast. It was malignant and she had early diagnosis and treatment. Because I was listening to what came to me during her session, and, despite it having no clinical correlation at all, I trusted it, and it helped point her in a very positive direction in terms of something that she didn’t even know about herself that needed tending to.
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Iacchus said:
And according to what I've read in her books, this is not untypical of the types of experiences Dr. Orloff is accustomed to having. From her conversation with Walter Jacobson, M.D.

Re-printed from the Newsletter of the Southern California Psychiatric Society
Volume 49, Number 2, October 2000
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Orloff should apply for the $1,000,000.
 
Iacchus said:
Are you familiar with Dr. Judith Orloff? She speaks of a very similar journey, yet draws a different conclusion.
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How can you call it a similar journey when you have not looked at Blackmore's talk?

The journey starts at a similar place, perhaps, but the difference is that Blackmore critically examines. She follows the evidence. Orloff is a psychiatrist, not a researcher. She emphasizes the intuitive, not the objective. Hers is a field that used to dominate psychological thought, but now is little more than a footnote. Why? Because the evidence leads not to the path Orloff follows, but the one Blackmore does.

Go watch Blackmore, Iacchus. It won't hurt you.
 
Mercutio said:
How can you call it a similar journey when you have not looked at Blackmore's talk?

The journey starts at a similar place, perhaps, but the difference is that Blackmore critically examines. She follows the evidence. Orloff is a psychiatrist, not a researcher. She emphasizes the intuitive, not the objective. Hers is a field that used to dominate psychological thought, but now is little more than a footnote. Why? Because the evidence leads not to the path Orloff follows, but the one Blackmore does.

Go watch Blackmore, Iacchus. It won't hurt you.
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And, according to Orloff, she has the results to back it up.
 
Iacchus said:
I had this experience once, when I thought I had died and gone to heaven.
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Thank you for the link, Iacchus. I presume that you are the author of the site linked to. I cannot say that I read the entire thing, but it is an impressive effort.

I urge all participants in this thread to visit Iacchus's site:

http://www.dionysus.org

because I think it will put Iacchus's threads and comments in a proper perspective.

Iacchus, I hate to say this, no flame intended, but I think that you are, quite simply, crazy.
 
bruto said:
Thank you for the link, Iacchus. I presume that you are the author of the site linked to. I cannot say that I read the entire thing, but it is an impressive effort.

I urge all participants in this thread to visit Iacchus's site:

http://www.dionysus.org

because I think it will put Iacchus's threads and comments in a proper perspective.

Iacchus, I hate to say this, no flame intended, but I think that you are, quite simply, crazy.
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Well, thank you very much! :D Just think how crazy it will drive the rest of you folks if, come to find out I was telling the truth? Ecstasy or madness, they say! Yes, this is the cry of the Bacchae ...
 
Iacchus said:
And, according to Orloff, she has the results to back it up.
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No. She has her own clinical evidence. In psychiatry, unless it is part of a controlled study, these are merely anecdotal accounts. Sorry, but in the land of evidence, she has nothing.
 
Iacchus said:
Hey, that would be something if both she and Orloff could get together wouldn't it?
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Blackmore would wipe the floor with Orloff.

Actually, she would not have to. The evidence would do it for her.

Sorry, Iacchus, you may be proud to be seen as crazy, but you are simply a fool.
 
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