Merged Does CERN prove Einstein wrong?

[Anders Lindman]

That wasn't your argument. Besides which it is theoretically possible that particles that go back in time exist. In fact positrons are indistinguishable in their behavior from electrons traveling backwards in time and can be viewed in that manner.

I'd note it has been considered that the arrow of time is no more special than the fact water flows downhill due to the forces on it.

Beyond that, the definition of a dimension doesn't have the requirement you are pretending it has. Just because time is a different kind of dimension than the spatial dimensions (a fact the math that uses time as a dimension fully acknowledges), doesn't mean it isn't a dimension or can't be used as a dimension mathematically.

Equations behaving the same in both ways for time don't match reality. Another thing with time is that the amount of information in the universe is increasing all the time. This can be observed as the process of evolution and Ray Kurzweil's law of accelerating returns (which applies not only to technology but also to biology). So there is an increase in complexity in the direction of time. And as Kevin Kelly has pointed out, the force of what he calls extropy is stronger than the destructive force of entropy. So even with ever increasing entropy there is an ever increase of extropy which means that entropy alone is not the complete cause of the arrow of time. (If entropy really was stronger than extropy the universe would have collapsed before it even would have begun.)

 

[Anders Lindman]

Yes, because the clocks on the satellites actually already compensate for time dilation. Of course, if time dilation were not real the discrepency between the clocks on the satellites and earth-bound clocks would mean they'd give false results.

It's not very hard to understand.

So is there really any need for GPS receivers for the public market to do relativistic calculations?

 

[nomuse]

Equations behaving the same in both ways for time don't match reality. Another thing with time is that the amount of information in the universe is increasing all the time. This can be observed as the process of evolution and Ray Kurzweil's law of accelerating returns (which applies not only to technology but also to biology). So there is an increase in complexity in the direction of time. And as Kevin Kelly has pointed out, the force of what he calls extropy is stronger than the destructive force of entropy. So even with ever increasing entropy there is an ever increase of extropy which means that entropy alone is not the complete cause of the arrow of time. (If entropy really was stronger than extropy the universe would have collapsed before it even would have begun.)

I hate to be mean -- be nice to be able to say just once "Yes, you have it completely right" but all the decreases in entropy I know are LOCAL, and are made up for by an INCREASE in entropy elsewhere. As far as I can figure it out, the information content of the universe (if you use any meaningful measure) remains constant. There is after all a net zero sum to all the energy in the universe. And since information requires energy, it would appear to follow that there can be no global increase in information in a closed system.

 

[Drachasor]

Equations behaving the same in both ways for time don't match reality. Another thing with time is that the amount of information in the universe is increasing all the time. This can be observed as the process of evolution and Ray Kurzweil's law of accelerating returns (which applies not only to technology but also to biology). So there is an increase in complexity in the direction of time. And as Kevin Kelly has pointed out, the force of what he calls extropy is stronger than the destructive force of entropy. So even with ever increasing entropy there is an ever increase of extropy which means that entropy alone is not the complete cause of the arrow of time. (If entropy really was stronger than extropy the universe would have collapsed before it even would have begun.)

Wow, there's a lot scientifically wrong there.

Entropy IS increasing. There can be localized decreases of energy, but if you consider all the Energy coming into the Earth, leaving the Earth, and staying on the Earth, then entropy is increasing there. It's increasing everywhere. This is a statistical fact more than anything else.

By that I mean that except for one or two particle collisions, all of physics flows the same backwards or forwards. The arrow of time appears to exist in physics just because things are going from a highly ordered state (big bang) to a highly disordered state (heat death).

You might benefit from taking some basic college science courses. There's a lot of neat stuff to learn, but you seem to just be picking up any sort of junk you come across (no offense).

 

[nomuse]

So is there really any need for GPS receivers for the public market to do relativistic calculations?

How does the satellite know where YOU are? It would have to, if it were to pre-compensate for relativistic effects.

 

[Drachasor]

So is there really any need for GPS receivers for the public market to do relativistic calculations?

Yes, otherwise they won't come up with the right location. They first put the system on without taking special relativity into account. It didn't work and wouldn't calculate the right place you were in (e.g. it would be off by a LOT). When they had relativity taken into account, the system worked as intended.

 

[Anders Lindman]

How does the satellite know where YOU are? It would have to, if it were to pre-compensate for relativistic effects.

Yes, otherwise they won't come up with the right location. They first put the system on without taking special relativity into account. It didn't work and wouldn't calculate the right place you were in (e.g. it would be off by a LOT). When they had relativity taken into account, the system worked as intended.

But according to this explanation all the effects of relativity (velocity and gravity) are compensated by adjusting the clocks in the satellites:

"Altogether, the clocks of the satellites seem to run a little faster. The shift of time to the observer on earth would be about 38 milliseconds per day and would make up for an total error of approximately 10 km per day. In order that those error do not have to be corrected constantly, the clocks of the satellites were set to 10.229999995453 Mhz instead of 10.23 Mhz but they are operated as if they had 10.23 MHz. By this trick the relativistic effects are compensated once and for all." -- http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/errors.htm

 

[Anders Lindman]

I hate to be mean -- be nice to be able to say just once "Yes, you have it completely right" but all the decreases in entropy I know are LOCAL, and are made up for by an INCREASE in entropy elsewhere. As far as I can figure it out, the information content of the universe (if you use any meaningful measure) remains constant. There is after all a net zero sum to all the energy in the universe. And since information requires energy, it would appear to follow that there can be no global increase in information in a closed system.

Wow, there's a lot scientifically wrong there.

Entropy IS increasing. There can be localized decreases of energy, but if you consider all the Energy coming into the Earth, leaving the Earth, and staying on the Earth, then entropy is increasing there. It's increasing everywhere. This is a statistical fact more than anything else.

By that I mean that except for one or two particle collisions, all of physics flows the same backwards or forwards. The arrow of time appears to exist in physics just because things are going from a highly ordered state (big bang) to a highly disordered state (heat death).

You might benefit from taking some basic college science courses. There's a lot of neat stuff to learn, but you seem to just be picking up any sort of junk you come across (no offense).

I wrote: "So even with ever increasing entropy there is an ever increase of extropy which means that entropy alone is not the complete cause of the arrow of time."

So, yes, the total amount of entropy is increasing all the time. That's what I said! But there is also an increase of extropy. The overall effect is that the complexity in the universe is increasing all the time. This can be recognized by looking at the evolution of the universe, from subatomic particles after the Big Bang, to atoms, then molecules formed, then single-celled organisms, then multicellular organism and now we have technology that is the latest expansion of complexity.

And the increase of complexity is actually an exponential progress, as shown in this graph: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2096/2539823898_afe8a7ae89_o.jpg

So complexity, and the amount of information in the universe is increasing. Here is another chart showing this: http://www.singularity.com/images/charts/ParadigmShiftFor15Lists.jpg

 

[Drachasor]

But according to this explanation all the effects of relativity (velocity and gravity) are compensated by adjusting the clocks in the satellites:

"Altogether, the clocks of the satellites seem to run a little faster. The shift of time to the observer on earth would be about 38 milliseconds per day and would make up for an total error of approximately 10 km per day. In order that those error do not have to be corrected constantly, the clocks of the satellites were set to 10.229999995453 Mhz instead of 10.23 Mhz but they are operated as if they had 10.23 MHz. By this trick the relativistic effects are compensated once and for all." -- http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/errors.htm

Yes, they aren't as far into Earth's gravity well, so their time runs a bit faster for them (and our time runs slower then theirs). This is a blatant example of how acceleration and gravity affect the flow of time to an observer in a different reference frame.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Yes, they aren't as far into Earth's gravity well, so their time runs a bit faster for them (and our time runs slower then theirs). This is a blatant example of how acceleration and gravity affect the flow of time to an observer in a different reference frame.

But how do you know that the clocks in the satellites are adjusted? Maybe they aren't! And Einstein's relativity a fraud.

 

[Drachasor]

But how do you know that the clocks in the satellites are adjusted? Maybe they aren't! And Einstein's relativity a fraud.

Just how many people are in on this conspiracy? Who started it? Why did they start it? How has it been maintained for 100 years or so without the slightest trouble?

 

[Anders Lindman]

Just how many people are in on this conspiracy? Who started it? Why did they start it? How has it been maintained for 100 years or so without the slightest trouble?

One guess is that Einstein's theory was published as a smokescreen to hide the real science such as zero-point energy. Then, yes, the conspiracy has been going on for a century, and perhaps for thousands of years actually. Millions of people can be involved with the shadow society without the rest of us knowing about it.

Knowledge is power. By keeping the true knowledge to themselves the shadow powers can remain having the upper hand.

 

[Drachasor]

One guess is that Einstein's theory was published as a smokescreen to hide the real science such as zero-point energy.

Zero-point energy is a misunderstanding of QUANTUM mechanics, which didn't exist until well after General Relativity came out and long after it had been accepted by the scientific community.

Then, yes, the conspiracy has been going on for a century, and perhaps for thousands of years actually. Millions of people can be involved with the shadow society without the rest of us knowing about it.

Knowledge is power. By keeping the true knowledge to themselves the shadow powers can remain having the upper hand.

It is simply ludicrous that millions of people kept a secret like that. I'm not even aware of examples of thousands of people keeping a secret for one generation. If you could do it with millions, people would have done it with much smaller groups at other times and eventually one of them would leak as many conspiracies leak. We'd have examples of such conspiracies throughout history that lasted for a long while before being discovered. We do not.

We'd also have examples of scientists being murdered a LOT as some would surely have second thoughts about keeping such a secret and try to go public. People low in the totem pole of such an organization would also see a lot to gain by going public. Others would feel guilty. It just couldn't be maintained.

I don't see how you can think that's more reasonable than reality It's far more complicated and ridiculous than simply accepting that reality is a bit stranger than you think.

 

[Mashuna]

I know basically zero about that.

If you just stick to this statement in all your future answers, your accuracy rate will close in on 100%.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Now it's GPS that's a fraud too? It's essentially just a fancy electronic sextant. Before it was around there was Transit which was a direct result of monitoring Sputnik and seeing the doppler shift as it orbited. Transit was less accurate (due to a less accurate clock) and you had to time your fixes to catch the time of rise due to there being a lot less satellites in orbit but you could get your position down to about 200 yards or so off of one bird. That was close enough for lobbing those nuclear weapons that Anders also thinks that we didn't have.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Now it's GPS that's a fraud too? It's essentially just a fancy electronic sextant. Before it was around there was Transit which was a direct result of monitoring Sputnik and seeing the doppler shift as it orbited. Transit was less accurate (due to a less accurate clock) and you had to time your fixes to catch the time of rise due to there being a lot less satellites in orbit but you could get your position down to about 200 yards or so off of one bird. That was close enough for lobbing those nuclear weapons that Anders also thinks that we didn't have.

The question discussed earlier is about whether GPS receivers for the public do calculations based on Einstein's relativity or not. The text I quoted talks about that an adjustment in the satellite clocks is all that is needed to compensate for relativistic effects.

 

[fuelair]

I know basically zero about that. Ask the shadow powers. They have the real knowledge, or at least vastly more accurate knowledge than the toy science we the public have been given to confuse us.

If you claim, and you do, to know the shadow, please explain abandonderos in your own words.. That might be convincing. Might.

 

[Greedo]

Honest and non-sarcastic question - Anders, where did you get this theory?

 

[Anders Lindman]

If you claim, and you do, to know the shadow, please explain abandonderos in your own words.. That might be convincing. Might.

I'm not familiar with abandonderos. I guess what the shadow powers are based on what I have learned about conspiracy theories.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Honest and non-sarcastic question - Anders, where did you get this theory?

I don't remember when exactly I started questioning Einstein's theories. It might have been before or after I started looking into the possibility of an atom bomb hoax. Maybe 2-3 years ago.