Do we agree the towers were designed to withstand jetliner crash?


Skilling never said 600 mph.

Feel free to show the quote, which you were fooled by history commons, a web site of truthers who debunk themselves with the references in their work.

The poor guys mislead you. You were fooled by a web site which added the made up fact, Skilling must of been talking about a white paper he might not of seen, or known about. (look up "likely", then add maybe not to the connect the dots which failed)

Robertson did the design for 180 mph. Why can't you acknowledge it?

The analysis Skilling is referring to is likely one done in early 1964, during the design phase of the towers. A three-page white paper, dated February 3, 1964,
Oops, history commons made up the news; again.

Another hit and run presented by ... me
 
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Lol if you google

would handle the impact of a 707 traveling at 600 mph without collapsing

You will soon find every truther site :D
 
Justin- For one I did not say that he did in my quote. My opinion is that inferential evidence strongly if not certainly suggests that he did. Also someone wrote a wqhtie paper that did say 600 MPH. And finally the point is how does a background in computer modeling my ability to understand clear everyday concepts?

DGM - You can ask some question all day long and think you are exposing a red herring. The point of your question is clearly to try to draw me into a larger discussion ,and i will keep repeating lets have some definitive statements on this issue first.

I will however address your point on the titanic a bit. If the point is that science can be wrong, then the answer is obviously yes. However that does not escape the question of first establishing what the actual science was, nor does it establish the nature of the evidence that is necessary in overturning established scientific claims. It seems that the Sagan quote of extraordinary claims require extrodinary evidence is apropos in this regard since you are claiming that established scientific understandings can be found to be wrong . That is your claim with the titanic example is it not? If you wish to claim established scientific understandings are not reliable so be it, but not contradict yourself by then saying the opposite is also true as in the Sagan quote
 
Robertson did the design for 180 mph. Why can't you acknowledge it?

Unlike your gang I can acknowledge obvious truths. Yes Robertson claims to have done so. Though if I use your standard of evidence there is no proof or paper trail of the claim as far as I know

Paul Thompson at History Commons does not believe that 9/11 was a false flag operation. At least that is my understanding. Do you know something different?
 
Beachnut- I do give you credit for at least almost talking about the relevant issues, but apparently you will not address who you believe wrote the white paper or whether it is a logical inference to believe this in fact paper based on Skillings study. Instead you fell you have had an epiphany regarding the word likely
 
Might our non-believing friend post a link to some white paper that he's discussing? I haven't seen it.
 
Beachnut- You also make a good point about your lie that you will not address, that being Skilling has clearly stated they considered the impact of fire. You on the one hand want dismiss the notion of preparing for a high speed impact and on the other concede that it is obvious such an impact would not destroy the buildings. So apparently fire is the only meaningful variable and that is the one you continue to lie about
 
DGM - You can ask some question all day long and think you are exposing a red herring. The point of your question is clearly to try to draw me into a larger discussion ,and i will keep repeating lets have some definitive statements on this issue first.
This proves you have no clue. Where have I stated I wish to get into a discussion? I keep asking you to make a point. The fact you can't is apparent to those with more than singe digit IQ"s

I'll give you one more chance. John Skilling died before 9/11/01. Why would you ignore the opinion of the engineers that worked with him and are still alive to this day? Is Skillings' opinion proof of the integrity of the towers.

I bet you won't answer this honestly. After all, you are a "truther".
 
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Not surprising that you want the conversation to simply go away. The question remains, who did the white paper? The question also remains regarding the likelihood that it was done by Skilling. I could also ask what is the source of your certainty that it was not done by Skilling? We do know that Skilling did a separate study, and that this white paper fits the exact parameters that we would have expected from the study he references. Who do we think did it? The janitors?

Also Beachnut I know you prefer your version of hit and run logical arguments but somewhere here you mention that it is a fact that no one considered fire in the studies. This is clearly contradicted by Skillings statement to the Seattle Times reporter. So perhaps you could explain your so called facts?

Whether Sklling authored the whitepaper or not is not what matters. The fact of the matter is, there was no study done on the effects that the resultant fire would have on the damaged structure.

Also, the towers DID withstand the impacts as they stood for some time after them.

Here is a link to page 138 from the book, City in the Sky: The Rise and Fall of the World Trade Center.
http://books.google.com/books?id=yE...e would be a horrendous fire skilling&f=false
 
Also I should add that at 306 and at 314 I made it clear that attributing Skillings statement to the 600 MPH is done by the inferential logic associated to the white paper, but Beachnut continues to ramble on claiming I am attributing the quote directly to Skilling. I saw copy of the white paper but it is at a truther site, so I assume it is part of our giant conspiracy of made up documents but I will post a link in the hopes there is a rare open mind here
 
Although Skilling is not an explosives expert, he says there are people who do know enough about building demolition to bring a structure like the Trade Center down.

"I would imagine that if you took the top expert in that type of work and gave him the assignment of bringing these buildings down with explosives, I would bet that he could do it."

Would it be fair to say Skilling would have thought the collapses were CD
 
Beachnut- You also make a good point about your lie that you will not address, that being Skilling has clearly stated they considered the impact of fire.

Please show us where "Skilling clearly stated they considered the impact of fire."
 
I think we should let the "truthers" opinion that an engineers statements make a building impervious to collapse ride on. That's not a red herring.

Let the "truth" seekers live on. :rolleyes:

This is the kind of intelligence that has got them where they are today. We need to let them enjoy this achievement. ;)
 
This proves you have no clue. Where have I stated I wish to get into a discussion? I keep asking you to make a point. The fact you can't is apparent to those with more than singe digit IQ"s

I'll give you one more chance. John Skilling died before 9/11/01. Why would you ignore the opinion of the engineers that worked with him and are still alive to this day? Is Skillings' opinion proof of the integrity of the towers.

I bet you won't answer this honestly. After all, you are a "truther".


Your write you are not about discussions my bad. I do not ignore what anyone has said. Where do you get that? Robertsons is quoted in the 80s as saying something similar to that he did not believe the buildings could be successfully attacked. I have not denied he claims to have dome a study so where do you come up with your assertions?

Your question should be was Skillings opinion consistent with scientific understandings of the day, and then does preexisting scientific understandings have relevance in truth claims which wish to overturn those understandings

And I as well bet you will not answer these questions honestly
 
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=john_skilling_1
the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), following its three-year investigation into the WTC collapses, will in 2005 state that it has been “unable to locate any evidence to indicate consideration of the extent of impact-induced structural damage or the size of a fire that could be created by thousands of gallons of jet fuel.” [National

The interesting thing about this is that after 11 years, the 911 truth Movement has also been unable to locate any evidence to indicate consideration of the extent of impact-induced structural damage or the size of a fire that could be created by thousands of gallons of jet fuel, other than second hand remarks by the engineers and newspaper article in which the study is mentioned.

Fact is that the structure DID indeed survive the impact of an aircraft somewhat comparable to a 707 at a speed of around 500 MPH. It probably could have withstood a multi-level fire caused by the spread of thousands of gallons of liquid acellerant as well.
what it failed to survive was having both of these insults happen consecutively with the initial impact also taking out sprinkler pressure and removing sugnificant amounts of fire insulation from the steel.

To expect that in 1964 anyone, or any team of engineers, could have produced a study taking into account and doing all the calculations in the FEA done by NIST is to expect miracles. To expect that such a study would be contained in a "three page" white paper is akin to believeing that "Star Trek" is a docuementary.
Even if a team of engineers came up with the basic parameters and work flow of what would be used nowadays in a computer FEA, and began the task of working out the effect of; impact on steel members and connection; the spread of the fire; the effect of heat on the steel;and taking into account the amount and distribution of fire insulation removal, and loss of fire suppression, then I daresay that they just might be finishing those calculations about now.

However, I do not doubt that they did a basic approximation on the effect of impact and on load redistributions. Perhaps even considering a large fire as a result. Did they consider passive and active fire suppression losses? They could not however, have considered the office furnishing having modern plastics and synthetics in the amount and type used 40 years later.

Can we agree that the towers could withstand an aircraft impact?
Yes of course we can, they did, both of them.

Can we agree that they were specifically and purposely designed to do so? No, because they were not, there is no evidence to support such a claim. In fact there is no evidence that any office structure anywhere was specifically and purposely designed to do so (at least before 2001).

Can we agree that the towers were designed to withstand multilevel, large area fires occuring within seconds due to widespread liquid acellerant? No, and again there is no evidence that they were purposely and specifically designed to do so. Perhaps it was later determined that such a fire would not harm the structure due to the combination of passive and active fire suppression utilised in the towers. Maybe.

Of course EVEN IF they had been specifically and purposely designed, in the 1960s, to withstand both the impact and fires expected of a high speed large airliner carrying a large load of jet fuel and in 2001 they succumbed to exacty that it only means that the orginal engineering was not up to the task and if a modern FEA finds that they could not, this simply points out that 21st century engineering has the benefit of 21st century computing technology with which to make a better determination on this subject than did those supbre engineers in the 1960s.

The similarity to the Titanic is astounding. Engineers declared her unsinkable. Turns out they did not consider the specifics of the collission that took her down. They may not have been able to foresee the effect of the cold water on the type of rivets she was built with. However, in hindsight and with the technology we have today we can see what went wrong.
 
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Since you don't ignore what anyone has said, will you be linking this white paper? Apologies if I missed it.
 
Robertsons is quoted in the 80s as saying something similar to that he did not believe the buildings could be successfully attacked. I have not denied he claims to have dome a study so where do you come up with your assertions?

What did he say after the attacks?
Your question should be was Skillings opinion consistent with scientific understandings of the day, and then does preexisting scientific understandings have relevance in truth claims which wish to overturn those understandings

How does this matter? Like I've said all along. How does what he said support what you claim happened. It's a red herring, designed to continue an argument you have no proof of. His opinion does not help you. If it does, please explain how.
And I as well bet you will not answer these questions honestly

See, I proved you wrong again.
 

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