Do fundamentalist Mormans abuse children?

[drkitten]

No; in fact I think it would be a predictable condemnation from him and for obvious reasons.

Not if the practices he wishes to condemn are still part and parcel of standard LDS practice, and he doesn't want to risk cutting off his own support. I will accept that the modern LDS church no longer practices polygamy. I do not accept (because I've seen it) that the modern LDS church no longer practices child abuse and spousal abuse --- and I'd be really interested to see how the split goes on forced marriage....

Of course, Mitt could simply lie in his teeth, but that in and of itself would be interesting, esp. when the lie came out. If he told a reporter that the Mormons do NOT believe in spousal abuse, that would become an open field for investigative journalism. What would they turn up?

 

[RandFan]

Who said anything about "blame"?

Hmmm...

Yeah, well, the problem with that "disavowal" is that it's a thumping great big lie.

I took disavowal as "responsibility for".

I accept that the Mormon Church is not to blame for the acts of an offshoot sect over which they have no control. But I'd be very interested to hear an on-the-record statement about exactly what parts of the FLDS' practices they wish to distance themselves from. ("Wife abuse," for example, is arguably not only not frowned upon, but actively demanded.)

I think there is an element of truth to this but I don't think it is as it is painted and certainly not "demanded". I don't like the Church's stance on this issue at all but I think a false picture is being painted.

Yes, I'm perfectly willing to use the FLDS as a wedge to embarass the LDS itself for their bad practices.

..., ok, I guess. I wouldn't buy it myself but to each his own I suppose.

 

[BPSCG]

But I'd be very interested to hear an on-the-record statement about exactly what parts of the FLDS' practices they wish to distance themselves from. ("Wife abuse," for example, is arguably not only not frowned upon, but actively demanded.)

This is from the above link.

"Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

"That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death." (D&C 121:43-44)

Anyone else notice the problem with invoking it as "proof" that wife abuse is "actively demanded"?

Or is this supposed to be proof that Mormons favor child abuse? If so, I don't see how sharply reproving a child when he misbehaves, but later reassuring him that you love him, amounts to child abuse.

Of course, I don't have any kids, so what do I know?

 

[varwoche]

Of course. I would not demonize Mormons in general because of this splinter group. However, I do regret that Mitt Romney is not still in the race, because I'd really like to see him squirm, especially after that speech about the "evils of secularism".

In a sense, Mormons in general are the splinter group. That is, FLDS is truer to the teachings of Joseph Smith than the mainstream church.

The fact that LDS church strongly denounces FLDS specifically for being true to Smith's teachings is a fascinating bit of dissonance.

 

[bigred]

I do not accept (because I've seen it) that the modern LDS church no longer practices child abuse and spousal abuse

ah, I thought it sounded like an ax to grind in there somewhere...

I'm reasonably sure that child/spousal abuse is not a standard Mormon practice or policy and knowing a Mormon family where that happened doesn't make it so.

If so, I don't see how sharply reproving a child when he misbehaves, but later reassuring him that you love him, amounts to child abuse.

You'd be amazed (perhaps nauseated) at how many do.

Of course, I don't have any kids, so what do I know?

More than quite a few parents out there, believe me. I have always said "experience does equal expertise" and see so-called parents nearly every day who remind me of it.

 

[Kaylee]

If so, I don't see how sharply reproving a child when he misbehaves, but later reassuring him that you love him, amounts to child abuse.

You'd be amazed (perhaps nauseated) at how many do.

Ah, I think that Dr.Kitten and the posters in the forum she linked to were distinguishing between verbal abuse and normal (well at lest the kind that doesn't cause emotional problems anyway) discipline.

 

[nightwind]

Well, I'm going to have to wait and see what evidence comes out on this. The facts in this case still seem very unclear.

These kinds of cases spawn a type of hysteria, which sometimes blur the true facts about what or is going on.

I'm going to reserve any judgements on this until more information is available.

 

[articulett]

I think when you have a group of people encouraging faith as the highest good.... with people (priests, prophets, gurus) etc. claiming to have divine truths... you always have a recipe for disaster. If you indoctrinate a trusting person to believe that some man has the keys to their "eternity", you've got a recipe for abuse. What wouldn't you do if you believed your eternity was at stake? What message do you think your brain could convince you was coming from "god"?

It's not just Fundamentalist Mormons who are telling women they have revelations that they are supposed marry such and such a person.... although with the FLDS, it is particularly abusive. These kids know no other life and they believe their eternity is at stake... Girls are married off and are expected to produce a child a year... and then they are reliant on the community--they have no education and too many kids...they "need" their sister wives--and the welfare system too. They have to force themselves to believe there will be rewards in the after life... because this one quickly becomes burdensome. And they are scared of the "outside world"-- scared they'll suffer eternal damnation (outer darkness).

Boys who toe the line are promised brides eventually for their allegiance... but those who don't are kicked out... excommunicated... all too easily-- because they are threat to the older men who want more young brides. It is repulsive and archaic and a self perpetuating problem... FLDS men form their own little fiefdoms if they manage to rise in the ranks and please the right people.

I just don't think faith is ever a means of knowledge... it's a way of controlling the behavior of others, and I think any indoctrination that makes people fear damnation and believe that "faith" and obedience to an invisible man is what life is about-- is abusive.

So often faiths make people fear outsiders... those who lack the faith... while they are taught to trust people who claim to know divine truths. It ruins critical thinking... it makes people afraid of knowledge. It's a loss to all of us who might benefit from these minds wasted on promises of eternal rewards and too many babies spawned in an effort to earn them.

The most virulent faiths teach their members to be their own oppressors.

 

[Arkayik]

Are you disputing the fact that the FLDS religion practices child abuse as a part of their community culture?

Do you deny they are U.S. Citizens? 1 good strawman deserves another...

I confess my ignorance of the "community culture" within this enclave, but I don't think you know much more... Ignorance does 2 things, the ignorance makes us fear/demonize them as other, or turn a blind eye.

The fact is that people abuse people, regardless of the justification used.

As a simple thought exercise, imagine for a minute that the group involved was the Neo-Atheists Commune of America, and they had a whack-job leader who deemed Darwin said he could abuse children b/c he interprets it so... Is it the doctrine or the person?

That's the whole point. The FLDS do not wish for anyone to think for themselves. That would allow some of them to escape. This particular group is one of the most controlling religious groups in existence. If you question any of that, I suggest you simply google "FLDS".

I think the OP's question was whether Fundi Mormons abuse children (or whether a group of whack-jobs in TX abuse children)...

I may indeed be wrong, perhaps there is a Mormon commandment which states "thou shalt abuse thine offspring", however, I doubt it....

Just as a caveat, I'm not apologizing for religion. It makes me ill to think that the accusations might be true, and if true, are likely much toned down ("legal-speaked") from what might actually have occurred. I'd like to say that irrational responses won't help the situation, but it's hard not to be irrational when faced with this in our own back yard.

Someone raised the point that this stuff is not too far off what occurs in other parts of the world. And so perhaps that is true. However, I think what amplifies this "tragedy" - if the allegations are founded - is the geography. I think part of the horror is that we ought to know better, and we ought to be better able to protect our young and defenseless....

 

[George]

This is dated June 2005.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4091354.stm

"From everything I've been able to discern about Warren Jeffs, he is someone who is capable of some very different things," Jim Hill, an investigator in Utah's attorney general's office, told The Guardian newspaper.
"Whether that includes a mass suicide, I don't know. But I worry about it all the time."

I wonder if this guy ever imagined what may have been going on in that building, I mean he's only had three years to worry about it.
What the hell have these people been doing?

 

[Zygar]

Do you deny they are U.S. Citizens? 1 good strawman deserves another...

Bull****. Your post lead to that conclusion. Mine did not.

I confess my ignorance of the "community culture" within this enclave, but I don't think you know much more... Ignorance does 2 things, the ignorance makes us fear/demonize them as other, or turn a blind eye.

The fact is that people abuse people, regardless of the justification used.

As a simple thought exercise, imagine for a minute that the group involved was the Neo-Atheists Commune of America, and they had a whack-job leader who deemed Darwin said he could abuse children b/c he interprets it so... Is it the doctrine or the person?

It would be a community problem. Therefore it would be both. With the whack-job leader as the source.

I think the OP's question was whether Fundi Mormons abuse children (or whether a group of whack-jobs in TX abuse children)...

I may indeed be wrong, perhaps there is a Mormon commandment which states "thou shalt abuse thine offspring", however, I doubt it....

We are speaking specifically of all of the members of the same religious group. Doctrine doesn't have to be "abuse children". It just has to be a list of rules that result in the same.

All of the FLDS Church follow these rules. Understand?

Just as a caveat, I'm not apologizing for religion. It makes me ill to think that the accusations might be true, and if true, are likely much toned down ("legal-speaked") from what might actually have occurred. I'd like to say that irrational responses won't help the situation, but it's hard not to be irrational when faced with this in our own back yard.

Someone raised the point that this stuff is not too far off what occurs in other parts of the world. And so perhaps that is true. However, I think what amplifies this "tragedy" - if the allegations are founded - is the geography. I think part of the horror is that we ought to know better, and we ought to be better able to protect our young and defenseless....

Actually, the horror about this is that we have laws against this stuff. Proximity is not anymore to do with it than jurisdiction.

 

[fuelair]

Who said anything about "blame"? I accept that the Mormon Church is not to blame for the acts of an offshoot sect over which they have no control. But I'd be very interested to hear an on-the-record statement about exactly what parts of the FLDS' practices they wish to distance themselves from. ("Wife abuse," for example, is arguably not only not frowned upon, but actively demanded.)

BPSCG pointed out that Judaism and Christianity share a common heritage. That's one of the reasons that it's so interesting to listen to a Biblical literalistt try to pick and choose his way through Leviticus about which set of rules are really there and must be followed (such as not practicing homosexuality) and which ones aren't (like not eating cheesesburgers and wearing cotton-poly blends). And one of the reasons that it becomes such an effective way of showing just how intellectualy bankrupt the fundamentalist's viewpoint is.

Yes, I'm perfectly willing to use the FLDS as a wedge to embarass the LDS itself for their bad practices.

And, lest we forget:http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Dom...TF8&coliid=I3MTOCI2C3HYL0&colid=17H13O0MRE4AY

 

[Darth Rotor]

Meh~

Tenuous. Yes the historical Mormon Church bears responsibility but I'm not sure how much you can blame the current church for the sins of an offshoot.

Hell, let's blame the Pope for Jonestown. After all, any Christian sect is an offshoot of Catholicism. (Well, that's the Pope's story, and he's sticking to it, Assyrians and Armenians and Greeks be damned! He said that too, sort of.)

DR

 

[Kopji]

Gerry Goldstein, a San Antonio lawyer flanked by nine other attorneys the church hired, said the search of the temple is analogous to a law enforcement search of the Vatican or other holy places. The church lawyers described in documents three men being dragged from the temple as law enforcement sought entry for the search.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24014376/

Maybe I'm too cynical but I doubt it. This has all happened before in Arizona: Abused kids escaping in the dead of night, walking across the desert barefoot with nothing but the clothes on their backs - and this was not enough to bring these folks down.

America is built on freedom of religion and you can pretty much do what you want in the name of it, if you have good enough lawyers. They have 10 at my last count, and the state can't even come up with the girl who first called.

The one story being told is of a father who 'broke' babies by spanking them till they wailed, then essentially waterboarded them until they stopped crying when spanked.

This is one screwed up and spiritually motivated group of people. I really think that Texas is going to find out that they are being pretty naive about what they are getting into.

 

[a_unique_person]

The temple also contained multiple locked safes, vaults and desk drawers that authorities sought access to as they searched for records showing alleged marriages of underage girls as young as 12 or 13 to older men and births among the teens.
The affidavit unsealed today mentions a 16-year-old girl who has four children.
Texas law prohibits polygamy and the marriage of girls under 16.

A 16 year old with four children.




http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/sect-girl-16-had-four-children/2008/04/09/1207420486624.html

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yes. The ATF, etc., were rather ham-fisted in their application of the law, but ultimately why didn't Koresh and Co. cooperate? No one had to die that day, and as far as I know, it was the BDs that started the shooting and killing.

We now know what went on in that place and what a freak Koresh was. The government was right to act.


M.

Because they beleived that the end of the world was coming and that it would involve the evil demonic goverment fighting the few true people in the world(namely them)

 

[fuelair]

Because they beleived that the end of the world was coming and that it would involve the evil demonic goverment fighting the few true people in the world(namely them)

Their big mistake was that reversal of the good and the evil. Ah well, rectum breathers are slow learners.

 

[Bikewer]

I just finished listening to the Talk Of The Nation segment on this. Unfortunately, the second guest sounded like an apologist for the group, and talked about complaints being "overblown" or "not typical".
As the above post indicates, we have very young girls and young women being subjected to activities that would be crimes anywhere in the country.

 

[Elind]

Well, just on the face of it, this looks just like another witch hunt and gross over reaction by the state. Of course the media loves it because it has the phrase "sex abuse" involved. Authorites always seem to like to throw that around anytime they want to take what probably amount to illegal actions on their part. Kinda reminds me of the ridiculous daycare abuse witchunts of the past.

These are just religious extremist and the state freaks out. Lucky it wasn't another slaughter.

I listened to the news on this, and it seemed kinda ridiculous. They couldn't find the person who supposedly cried abuse. Oh hum. It was thought someone had been abused. Oh hum. It was thought there was some kind of potential for future abuse. Oh hum. Oh really? Give me a friggin break.

I saw the people walking out, and at first impression I will say baloney. And I have not seen any evidence of any kind of abuse put forward so far.

These people are off doing what they want to do. And yes, they are religious extremist. But so what?

This I feel will just turn out to be a bunch of nothing. Maybe I'm wrong. But I have that feeling.

Do you still have that "feeling" a few days later?

 

[Elind]

Well, I'm going to have to wait and see what evidence comes out on this. The facts in this case still seem very unclear.

These kinds of cases spawn a type of hysteria, which sometimes blur the true facts about what or is going on.

I'm going to reserve any judgements on this until more information is available.

You are still not watching the news are you? Perhaps you don't believe it?