Do fundamentalist Mormans abuse children?

[Moochie]

More news on this topic here -- from about 40 minutes ago as of this post.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

M.

 

[Zygar]

I agree. The adults can do whatever they like, even wear magic underpants as far as I'm concerned, but they shouldn't have the right to mess with their kids' lives.

Wrong Mormons.

I don't know if Fundamentalist Mormons Abuse their children, but I believe there is sufficient evidence to prove that some people do abuse their children. That is to say, people abuse children, not the -ism... I know it's nit-picky, but I think it is an important distinction to draw. Lets say for instance, that since these folks reside in the USA, we were to ask, "Do Americans Abuse Children" .... It is an prejudical and bigoted way to phrase the question (IMHO). Then again, I guess you sort of need an inflammatory question to get a thread going....

Are you disputing the fact that the FLDS religion practices child abuse as a part of their community culture?

Having said that, in my anecdotal experience, the level of emphasis placed upon a child's education by their elders/leaders/parents/society, tends to illustrate the inherent level of freedom within the group. That isn't to say the totalitarian societies always lack for educated people, but the fact that these children are kept in an uneducated condition, when good education is within their means, speaks volumes about the intentions of the leadership. I think that when education is within the group's/societie's grasp but not provided, that is abusive, never mind what may or may not be occurring in the bedrooms of these people....

Someone has a sig from Epictetus, which I think says it all.... Personally, I don't aspire to just educate my children, I hope to teach them to think for themselves....

That's the whole point. The FLDS do not wish for anyone to think for themselves. That would allow some of them to escape. This particular group is one of the most controlling religious groups in existence. If you question any of that, I suggest you simply google "FLDS".

 

[RandFan]

I know it's nit-picky, but I think it is an important distinction to draw. Lets say for instance, that since these folks reside in the USA, we were to ask, "Do Americans Abuse Children" ....

Not a good analogy. Abusing children isn't a charachteristic of American culture. It is in FDLS culture.

 

[Tricky]

Not a good analogy. Abusing children isn't a characteristic of American culture. It is in FDLS culture.

It is not a defining characteristic of American culture, but there is enough of it to say that it isn't at all an uncommon characteristic.

However, it appears that in this particular sect of the FLDS, it was a defining characteristic.

And apparently, they learned it from their parents.

Former members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints predicted an uneasy adjustment to foster care. They are likely the grandchildren or great-grandchildren of those taken by Arizona authorities 54 years ago in a similar raid.

 

[Zygar]

It is not a defining characteristic of American culture, but there is enough of it to say that it isn't at all an uncommon characteristic.

However, it appears that in this particular sect of the FLDS, it was a defining characteristic.

And apparently, they learned it from their parents.

You mean this particular sect of Mormons. The FLDS are this entire group, and they are all from the same origins. Unfortunately, this was only one of their compounds.

 

[Tricky]

You mean this particular sect of Mormons. The FLDS are this entire group, and they are all from the same origins. Unfortunately, this was only one of their compounds.

Hard to say. When sects split up and become isolated, they tend to diverge. This is especially true when one or a few strong personalities govern the compound. It's a bit like speciation in that respect. Although I suspect that if other compounds exist, they are similar, but I wouldn't assume it.

 

[Zygar]

Hard to say. When sects split up and become isolated, they tend to diverge. This is especially true when one or a few strong personalities govern the compound. It's a bit like speciation in that respect. Although I suspect that if other compounds exist, they are similar, but I wouldn't assume it.

The leaders move around a lot to prevent this from happening. And to stay ahead of the government. But you make a valid point.

 

[The Painter]

It seems this guy they are looking for as the husband of the 16 year old girl who called, doesn't live at the Texas compound. He lives in AZ and he is on probation. He can't leave the state.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8824195
The guy looks really creepy

Don't get me wrong, I'm not standing up for pedophiles and child molesters. They should be locked away, but there is something peculiar about this whole situation. To base all that has been done on one phone call, that could have been a prank. If the police knew he didn't live there, how could they raid it? There has to be more to this story.

 

[BPSCG]

Hm.

Polygamy.
Forced marriage.
Child brides.
Wife abuse.

Sounds like just another day in Teheran, Riyadh...

 

[BPSCG]

FWIW, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints disavows any connection with this sect.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reiterated Sunday that it has no affiliation whatever with a polygamous sect in Texas that has been subject to investigation by state law enforcement officers and child protective services. The Church discontinued polygamy officially in 1890, but more than a century later some news and Internet reports fail to draw clear distinctions between the Church and practicing polygamous sects.

 

[Normal Dude]

Well, just on the face of it, this looks just like another witch hunt and gross over reaction by the state. Of course the media loves it because it has the phrase "sex abuse" involved. Authorites always seem to like to throw that around anytime they want to take what probably amount to illegal actions on their part. Kinda reminds me of the ridiculous daycare abuse witchunts of the past.

These are just religious extremist and the state freaks out. Lucky it wasn't another slaughter.

I listened to the news on this, and it seemed kinda ridiculous. They couldn't find the person who supposedly cried abuse. Oh hum. It was thought someone had been abused. Oh hum. It was thought there was some kind of potential for future abuse. Oh hum. Oh really? Give me a friggin break.

I saw the people walking out, and at first impression I will say baloney. And I have not seen any evidence of any kind of abuse put forward so far.

These people are off doing what they want to do. And yes, they are religious extremist. But so what?

This I feel will just turn out to be a bunch of nothing. Maybe I'm wrong. But I have that feeling.

I'm curious as to what you have to say now, given the current information available.

 

[Tricky]

FWIW, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints disavows any connection with this sect.

Of course. I would not demonize Mormons in general because of this splinter group. However, I do regret that Mitt Romney is not still in the race, because I'd really like to see him squirm, especially after that speech about the "evils of secularism".

 

[BPSCG]

Of course. I would not demonize Mormons in general because of this splinter group.

Good.

However, I do regret that Mitt Romney is not still in the race, because I'd really like to see him squirm, especially after that speech about the "evils of secularism".

So after you acknowledge that these people have nothing to do with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you would then want to hear what a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has to say about them?

 

[drkitten]

FWIW, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints disavows any connection with this sect.

Yeah, well, the problem with that "disavowal" is that it's a thumping great big lie. Of course the LDS has a connection with the FLDS, even if it has no authority or current ties. But they're both cultural descendants of the same root stock. Similarly, although I might not like my hypothetical drug-dealing, car-stealing brother who's currently doing five to ten in the local lockup, he's still my brother and I can't honestly "disavow any connection with him."

Which is why I'd be interested in hearing what Romney had to say on the issue. Exactly what part of the FLDS is problematic for him. If, for example, polygamy is problematic -- but the other issues, such as [strikeout]Polygamy[/strikeout] Forced marriage, Child brides, and Wife abuse are just peachy (and standard LDS practice as well), that would be interesting, yes?

 

[bigred]

Color me unsurprised that you are posting yet another apology for child molestation, based on crevice-derived speculation no less.

Well I'm glad you didn't twist his words or anything.

In answer to the question posed by the OP: All fundamentalist, and all moderates, of any religion, abuse children.

It doesn't matter what someone else thinks.

Any lingering doubts I had about you being a troll were wiped w/that brilliance. Off to the troll list with you.

 

[RandFan]

Yeah, well, the problem with that "disavowal" is that it's a thumping great big lie. Of course the LDS has a connection with the FLDS, even if it has no authority or current ties. But they're both cultural descendants of the same root stock.

Meh~

Tenuous. Yes the historical Mormon Church bears responsibility but I'm not sure how much you can blame the current church for the sins of an offshoot.

 

[bigred]

You know how much that sounds like the kind of broad,sweeping,statement that a religious fundementalist would say?
One of the problems I have with the "New Atheism" is that some of it's self proclaimed proponents are a bigoted and close minded as the religious fanatics they hate.

Never thought I'd see that on this site. Bravo.

 

[BPSCG]

Yeah, well, the problem with that "disavowal" is that it's a thumping great big lie. Of course the LDS has a connection with the FLDS, even if it has no authority or current ties. But they're both cultural descendants of the same root stock.

Color me unimpressed. Judaism and Christianity are "both cultural descendants of the same rootstock", too. BFD.

 

[bigred]

Yeah, well, the problem with that "disavowal" is that it's a thumping great big lie. Of course the LDS has a connection with the FLDS, even if it has no authority or current ties. But they're both cultural descendants of the same root stock.

Yeah, kinda like how we're all "connected" to terrorists because we descended from the same cavemen.

that would be interesting, yes?

No; in fact I think it would be a predictable condemnation from him and for obvious reasons.

 

[drkitten]

Tenuous. Yes the historical Mormon Church bears responsibility but I'm not sure how much you can blame the current church for the sins of an offshoot.

Who said anything about "blame"? I accept that the Mormon Church is not to blame for the acts of an offshoot sect over which they have no control. But I'd be very interested to hear an on-the-record statement about exactly what parts of the FLDS' practices they wish to distance themselves from. ("Wife abuse," for example, is arguably not only not frowned upon, but actively demanded.)

BPSCG pointed out that Judaism and Christianity share a common heritage. That's one of the reasons that it's so interesting to listen to a Biblical literalistt try to pick and choose his way through Leviticus about which set of rules are really there and must be followed (such as not practicing homosexuality) and which ones aren't (like not eating cheesesburgers and wearing cotton-poly blends). And one of the reasons that it becomes such an effective way of showing just how intellectualy bankrupt the fundamentalist's viewpoint is.

Yes, I'm perfectly willing to use the FLDS as a wedge to embarass the LDS itself for their bad practices.