Director James Cameron rewrites religion!

Beady said:
What makes you think these other events won't happen?
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I give folks the benefit of the doubt. Anyway there is a case, so why not publicise it? Its completely opposed to my faith position (Christian), but I'm all in favour of rational debate or I would not be on the JREF (and the Dawkins forum) would I?

The problem is their case is sensational. Sometimes truth is sensational. If they profit from it, good for them. So what? The sensationalism of the case in no way impacts upon the truth of evidence, or proof they offer.

I reject their findings based on what I have seen so far in light of my limited knowledge of the facts - see earlier posts- I can't really judge further till all the facts are in, but I won't accuse folks of being "conmen" etc - that seems highly unfair. I look forward to the documentary!

cj x
 
Beady said:
There's a difference between being in denial and being wrong. As far as religion goes, the religous are guilty of cherrypicking the evidence and a whole lot of different kinds of "misinterpretation," but most of them do not deny the evidence exists. They just bend the evidence to fit their preconceived notions. No one on this board is ever guilty of such a thing, are they?
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That's almost precisely how I described them! I said they were masters of denial and twisting. The twisting you mentioned above, and agree with, and the denial is true by the very definition of faith.

Faith is belief without, and in the face of, scientific evidence.

What is that if not denial on the most extreme scale?
 
cj.23 said:
I give folks the benefit of the doubt.
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Boy, are you in the wrong forum!!!

The sensationalism of the case in no way impacts upon the truth of evidence, or proof they offer.
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Besides, "No one ever went broke by underestimating the American public."

...but I won't accuse folks of being "conmen" etc
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I distinguish between conmen and showmen.
 
Beady said:
Not enough to think the sky is falling. Fact is, I'm personally acquainted with many of these folks, and I find them to be rather decent sorts, by and large.
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Decent, except for where they either support or silently consent to the denial of basic civil rights to gay, lesbian and bisexual people. And, they're quite amiable except for likewise handling organizations that undermine the instruction of science to children. They're sincere and thoughtful except for the way they bundle and send off money to greedy charlatans who prey on their delusions.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
Decent, except for where they either support or silently consent to the denial of basic civil rights to gay, lesbian and bisexual people.
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How many do that? Are we talking US here?

ImaginalDisc said:
And, they're quite amiable except for likewise handling organizations that undermine the instruction of science to children.
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I doubt the majority of us who end up shifting burgers or stacking shelves will ever be particularly disadvantaged if we were taught ID claims at school? How big is the ID thing? In the UK I have not really noticed it?

ImaginalDisc said:
They're sincere and thoughtful except for the way they bundle and send off money to greedy charlatans who prey on their delusions.
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So you think I spend my disposable income on Pat Robertson and Benny Hinn?! :) Preying on delusiuons, false claims and rhetoric? Well, you could say the same about folk who purchase woo films like The God Who Wasn't There, various Christ-myther books and even the Dawkins/Harris Roadshow. However I guess folks can spend there money on what they want and its none of my business? Everyone has their showmen - not just the Fundie Christians.

cj x
 
cj.23 said:
I doubt the majority of us who end up shifting burgers or stacking shelves will ever be particularly disadvantaged if we were taught ID claims at school? How big is the ID thing? In the UK I have not really noticed it?

cj x
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In the US it's bigger, I guess. I don't think it's a simple matter of disadvantage, either. It's partly about learning to think, and learning, to put it bluntly, the difference between truth and lies. "Intelligent design," at least as promoted in the US, is a purposeful and despicably dishonest attempt to teach religion in place of science. It is not an alternative version of science: it is religion, and the people promoting it know this but lie about it in a cynical attempt to desecularize our society and corrupt our constitutional safeguards against state sponsored religious indoctrination.

This has nothing to do with religious belief per se. It has to do with dishonesty which should make any person with genuine religious, especially Christian, principles blush with shame. "Intelligent Design" is an unholy alliance with the Prince of Lies.
 
cj.23 said:
How many do that? Are we talking US here?
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In 2006 12 states passed laws specifically prohibiting same-sex marriages through ballot initiatives.



I doubt the majority of us who end up shifting burgers or stacking shelves will ever be particularly disadvantaged if we were taught ID claims at school? How big is the ID thing? In the UK I have not really noticed it?
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Everyone benefits directly by good science education. The power you use, the medicines you take and every aspect of your life is directly impacted by science and technology. Whether you are a scientist or not, your own livelihood is at stake when medieval peasants want to burn books.


So you think I spend my disposable income on Pat Robertson and Benny Hinn?! :) Preying on delusiuons, false claims and rhetoric? Well, you could say the same about folk who purchase woo films like The God Who Wasn't There, various Christ-myther books and even the Dawkins/Harris Roadshow. However I guess folks can spend there money on what they want and its none of my business? Everyone has their showmen - not just the Fundie Christians.

cj x
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Firstly, not everyone is prey to charlatans. Secondly, I agree that New Age hucksters, "spiritualist" mediums and "psychics" are just as guilty of preying on superstition as televangelists.

A distressingly large number of people give these liars money, evidenced by the the donations they receive.

P.S. It may be a little America-centric of me, but I'm specifically bemoaning America here.
 
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ImaginalDisc said:
In 2006 12 states passed laws specifically prohibiting same-sex marriages through ballot initiatives.
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This has to stop. In teh UK we have an Established Church, (I'm part of it) and we have Civil Partnership. I feel strongly about this because one of my mates boyfriends died and he got not a penny, because it was before the Act. Ironically an earlier Will meant it did go to a previous boyfriend however... Equality under law, regardless of religion - how can anything else be justified?

ImaginalDisc said:
Everyone benefits directly by good science education. The power you use, the medicines you take and every aspect of your life is directly impacted by science and technology. Whether you are a scientist or not, your own livelihood is at stake when medieval peasants want to burn books.
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I agree absolutely - I just think ID doesn't hurt folks the way other beliefs do. I prioritise it lower therefore. People don't kill people over Creationsim - I hope! I stronly oppose the rise of the Religious Right, and have been researching in the area for some years - but I think ID is still a fairly minor problem realistically. Racism, homophobia, lack of equality and opportunity for women, poverty, hunger, disease, global warming - all coem higher on my list of evils to fight...



ImaginalDisc said:
Firstly, not everyone is prey to charlatans. Secondly, I agree that New Age hucksters, "spiritualist" mediums and "psychics" are just as guilty of preying on superstition as televangelists.

A distressingly large number of people give these liars money, evidenced by the the donations they receive.

P.S. It may be a little America-centric of me, but I'm specifically bemoaning America here.
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Yes I gathered. I'm UK based, but my reponses are also in regards to the US really. I started another tread to discuss $$$ and woo. I don't think we disagree much - I just prioritise different things maybe?

j x
 
EeneyMinnieMoe said:
It goes without saying that the Polish media is getting offensive on this and debunking it from believer's stance. Their main talking points on this are "they're trying to make money!", "it's all just to make money!" and "they're getting alot of money!".
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You could also make the same observation about the Church.

Michael
 
cj.23 said:
This has to stop. In teh UK we have an Established Church, (I'm part of it) and we have Civil Partnership. I feel strongly about this because one of my mates boyfriends died and he got not a penny, because it was before the Act. Ironically an earlier Will meant it did go to a previous boyfriend however... Equality under law, regardless of religion - how can anything else be justified?
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By religion, which is only the most common of the objections raised. Another is the ubiquitous question "what am I supposed to tell my child if he asks me why two men are married," as though any parent's bigoted dilemma justifies passing totalitarian laws. Then of course there's naked and unabashed disgust and hatred undisguised by scripture.



I agree absolutely - I just think ID doesn't hurt folks the way other beliefs do. I prioritise it lower therefore. People don't kill people over Creationsim - I hope! I stronly oppose the rise of the Religious Right, and have been researching in the area for some years - but I think ID is still a fairly minor problem realistically. Racism, homophobia, lack of equality and opportunity for women, poverty, hunger, disease, global warming - all coem higher on my list of evils to fight...
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Maybe you don't recall the "Scopes Monkey Trial" but the struggle between scientific fact and religious superstition has been wagged in America for some time. While I'm sure a few newspaper articles could be found showing how someone was killed for teaching or promoting science, immediate mortal peril isn't the danger I'm concerned about. What concerns me is that children are being indoctrinated into religious beliefs. The consequences of that instruction are bad enough, but the practice of teaching lies in a school is enough to get me upset.





Yes I gathered. I'm UK based, but my reponses are also in regards to the US really. I started another tread to discuss $$$ and woo. I don't think we disagree much - I just prioritise different things maybe?

j x
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Frankly, I think things are much worse here in regards to religion, except for incredibly understated "Troubles."
 
Beady said:
Actually, I went to dictionary.com and came up with 14 entries for "faith," each with 6 to 10 definitions, 2 or 3 of each having to do with subtely different meanings in the religious sense.
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You're supporting my point. You having "faith" in an interlocutor is nothing at all like faith in a magical sky chieftain.
 
Beady said:
Plenty of non-religious people do that. Is it the motive or the act you have a problem with and, in either case, how far are you going to go to isolate yourself from them.
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I don't remember advocating the idea that skeptics and theists should segregate. For one thing, the two groups overlap a little, especially as most people manage to be rational about some things, and dogmatic and stubborn about others. For another, the struggle between reason and delusion is the defining struggle of civilization. If we want to build a better world, we must continue to debate and politically oppose irrational thought. There's never a good time to retire from the field.
 
Beady said:
Since 2000, three(?) states have instituted civil union, and one has instituted gay marriage. Before 2000, there was no provision for gay family rights, at all. To me, the glass is half full.
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I am not one to view civil rights as a matter of degree. Either people have the rights they should as human beings, or they do not. Secondly, I do not see a nation with twelve bigoted states and three half-heartedly progressive states as constituting a "half full" situation.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
You're supporting my point. You having "faith" in an interlocutor is nothing at all like faith in a magical sky chieftain.
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We're getting bogged down in details, here. Essentially, my points are:

1. Things aren't as bad as they've been made to appear, and they're showing tangible signs of getting better. The pace may appear glacial at the moment, but it's downright dizzying when measured against the whole.

2. Rather than complaining that things aren't happening fast enough, perhaps it would be better to be grateful to be witnessing what may be the next stage of evolution.

3. Error is not denial, misinterpretation is not distortion.

4. Ultimately, we have to co-exist with these people. You can try to do it while regarding them as evil and/or deluded, or you can tolerate them as fallible fellow-humans and lead by example. I know which method I prefer.
 
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