Director James Cameron rewrites religion!

[kitakaze]

Someone who is very close to me, who is not at all fundamentalist in her biblical interpretations, who know I am atheist, and who is not evangelical, told me not too long ago during one of our discussions that "It wouldn't matter if you irrefutably disproved the whole bible. I would still believe."

She wants to. She has to. She will not change.

I suspect most are like that.

I hope she doesn't change. The world has suffered so much ill in the name of religion but faith and belief are inseparable of the human condition. I've exchanged views with followers of many religions, some better and some worse for their beliefs. I wouldn't want to live in a world without Christianity any more than I'd want to live in one without Buddhism, Judaism, Bahaism, Hinduism, Islam, or any other faith that diversifies the human experience and in purpose for being attempts to address the human condition to which we are all subject.

 

[Fnord]

I don't think it'll happen. Believers will deny it as a matter of course, and they appear to be supported by virtually everyone else. This'll be a non-story within a week.

As one of the "Faithful" that Boo mentioned, I'll state that for the moment, this is a non-issue amongst most of the believers that I know. The rest are more concerned with wheter or not the other 70-odd tombs from the same era with the names "Jesus" and "Mary" will also be considered, or if they will be ignored for the convenience of Mr. Cameron's new movie.

IMHO, Mr. Cameron is attempting to exploit the belief/disbelief schism as much as Mr. Gibson did with his recent movie.

It's all about money, and the acquisition of same.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

I was reading about this last night at the discovery channel site on their forum. From what I've read it's a tomb dating to the first centure C.E. of a middle class jewish family with a grouping of names that were fairly common to the era and coincidental to those of some key figures in the bible. What is interesting is all the fuss being made over the inscription on one ossuary 'Judah son of Jesus' and the other that is said to translate to 'Mary the one master' alledgely refering to Mary Magdalene.

It could be great fun watching the faithful get all frothy over this.






Boo

Bolding mine. Weren't Mary and Joseph supposed to be rather poor? I thought that they ended up in a manger because they couldn't afford an inn. If this is the case, would they really warrant a family tomb? I figured them for an unmarked pauper's grave....

 

[cj.23]

Bolding mine. Weren't Mary and Joseph supposed to be rather poor? I thought that they ended up in a manger because they couldn't afford an inn. If this is the case, would they really warrant a family tomb? I figured them for an unmarked pauper's grave....

The problems was more of sold out than no cash. Tekton I think is the word in question for occupation - I'd guess lower middle as "agricultural builders" or "carpenters" if you prefer? Certainly not wealthy, and from Galilee, so why buried in Jerusalem? Anyway not much of a case to answer in the first case.
I am a bit vague, but I think that is right?

cj x

 

[RichardR]

Did this box have any old nails in it?

If it did you'd know it was a put up job

 

[RichardR]

Actually, serious question: if it really was the body of JC, would the skeleton have marks of the nails on it anywhere?

 

[Big Les]

Having seen the size of the nails they used to use, there ought to be marks on the bones of the hand or forearm; but said bones might not be in good enough condition after 2000 years to be able to spot and ID these as being crucifixion-related.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

If anyone's interested, it's getting some play in the Polish news.

It goes without saying that the Polish media is getting offensive on this and debunking it from believer's stance. Their main talking points on this are "they're trying to make money!", "it's all just to make money!" and "they're getting alot of money!".

It's funny to see believers and skeptics uniting against conspiracy nuts, just like last year with The DaVinci Code.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Bolding mine. Weren't Mary and Joseph supposed to be rather poor? I thought that they ended up in a manger because they couldn't afford an inn. If this is the case, would they really warrant a family tomb? I figured them for an unmarked pauper's grave....

The primary evidence that Jesus' parents were poor was when they presented Jesus at the temple about eight days after he was born:

And when the days of her purification according to the laws of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord") and to offer a sacrifice to that which is said in the law of the Lord: a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

The mentioned offering was the one used by the poor.

 

[Dave1001]

If anyone's interested, it's getting some play in the Polish news.

It goes without saying that the Polish media is getting offensive on this and debunking it from believer's stance. Their main talking points on this are "they're trying to make money!", "it's all just to make money!" and "they're getting alot of money!".

It's funny to see believers and skeptics uniting against conspiracy nuts, just like last year with The DaVinci Code.

I wasn't aware that skeptics were of one mind on this, nor that the scientists and research scholars associated with this project were "conspiracy nuts".

 

[cj.23]

I think it entirely possible that there is the body of a Jesus and the other named folks in a tomb - they are all very common names of the period. If I found the bodies of a John Paul and George, it would be dangerous to jump to any conclusions -- a Ringo and maybe i would have a case.

Today James Cameron said --

'Unveiling his documentary The Lost Tomb of Jesus, Mr Cameron said the chances of finding that combination of names together was like finding a grave marked Ringo next to others marked John, Paul and George.

"Mariamene is Mary Magdalene - that's the Ringo, that's what sets this whole film in motion," he said.'

wonder if the Ringo thing was just coincidence? Or did my critique I posted on Dawkins.net and the JREF actually attract his attention? In fact I guess i might just be psychic - can I have my million now?


cj x

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Dave, do you think that this is the tomb of Jesus? It's an old tomb, allright, and probably of alot of historical value but nothing more- very likely not the resting place of Jesus, like James Cameron is claiming.

This is the kind of thing that can only be taken seriously by fans of stuff like The DaVinci Code - conspiracy nuts. Which doesn't at all take away from the work of the professionals, anymore than 9/11 conspiracy theorists take away from the CIA investigation.

Believers and skeptics alike both laugh at the idea that it's anything but the resting place of someone named "Joseph" while somewhere on some message board, a bunch of New Agers are typing away.

 

[Humphreys]

Humphreys, I see where you're coming from but I don't think every Christian can be fairly characterized by the above statement. I think we have to be fair and understanding of a diversity of world views. Absolutely I would describe some infuriating bible thumpers I've had to endure that way but many Christian people do not fit that description.

The way I see it is, the evidence for Christianity is so flimsy and the evidence against so compelling, that one would have to be a master of denial and twisting to accept it as truth.

Anyone who follows the teachings of the Bible is encouraged to do this kind of mental twisting anyway, otherwise their faith would collapse under the weight of their own understandable doubts.

If one really cared about evidence, one would not replace it with faith, and since the average Christian does not seem to see evidence as important, it follows they would do everything in their power to twist and deny any put forward. Let's be honest, they must have come across far more compelling evidence against their position than some Christ DNA, and they've always dealt with it in the past.

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe the average believer is not like this, in that case I should get out and meet some more, however, in my experience to date, this is exactly how they tend to reason. I have quite a low opinion of the religious, as you can see.

 

[JQH]

hehe or the last bit:
"Pope: Look! I'm the bloody pope, I am! May not know much about art, but I know what I like! "

Michaelangelo: You don't want a creative artist, you want a bloody photogropher!


Or a film director?

 

[Beady]

The way I see it is, the evidence for Christianity is so flimsy and the evidence against so compelling, that one would have to be a master of denial and twisting to accept it as truth.

According to the 2000 census, 83% of the US population professes some sort of religious affiliation; I forget the percentage for Christianity, but it's in the vast majority. This brings up a lot of questions about "the way you see it" but, to keep it in terms of your statement, I challenge the notion that the vast majority of any demographic can be masters of that particular "discipline." If everyone is a guru, who are the disciples? Your statement is illogical.

I'm also minded of the scene in Contact, where Ellie is passed over to be the pilot of the alien craft. The reasoning is that the chosen representative of humanity should not be someone who thinks that virtually the entire race is delusional. This is a position that is difficult to argue with.

 

[Dave1001]

Dave, do you think that this is the tomb of Jesus? It's an old tomb, allright, and probably of alot of historical value but nothing more- very likely not the resting place of Jesus, like James Cameron is claiming.

This is the kind of thing that can only be taken seriously by fans of stuff like The DaVinci Code - conspiracy nuts. Which doesn't at all take away from the work of the professionals, anymore than 9/11 conspiracy theorists take away from the CIA investigation.

Believers and skeptics alike both laugh at the idea that it's anything but the resting place of someone named "Joseph" while somewhere on some message board, a bunch of New Agers are typing away.

Are you trying to convince yourself? As I think the JREF message board itself makes clear, the skeptical community is not of on mind about whether this is the family tomb of Jesus. Some, like you, seem to be very confident that it's not. Others, like me, are undecided, and are watching the exchanges between the research team announcing the "discovery" and expert critics as we make our determination. I think most skeptics don't consider the research team (consisting of people such as Dr. Tabor) to be all or predominantly "conspiracy nuts"- they seem to be legitimate academics making their case on the principles of science rather than conspiracy.

 

[kitakaze]

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe the average believer is not like this, in that case I should get out and meet some more, however, in my experience to date, this is exactly how they tend to reason. I have quite a low opinion of the religious, as you can see.

I totally understand the sentiment. Here's a bit of discussion (it needs some work but a lot of good points to consider nonetheless) on the matter if you're interested:

Criticism of Christianity.

Here's some religious people and things I have a high opinion of:

Steven Hawking

Martin Luther King

Bob Marley

Mahatma Gandhi

Gospel music.

Roots reggae.

Notre Dame de Paris

Here's a list of Christian people who've done some heavy thinking in regards to evidence and their faith:

List of Christian thinkers in science.

 

[Humphreys]

According to the 2000 census, 83% of the US population professes some sort of religious affiliation; I forget the percentage for Christianity, but it's in the vast majority. This brings up a lot of questions about "the way you see it" but, to keep it in terms of your statement, I challenge the notion that the vast majority of any demographic can be masters of that particular "discipline." If everyone is a guru, who are the disciples? Your statement is illogical.

Obviously I'm not implying these people are masters of denial in EVERY FIELD of investigation. Of course I'm referring to their attitude towards their own untouchable, unshakable relgious beliefs. I'm more than happy to state that 83% of the population is in complete denial in this regard.

Do you really think, all bias aside, a completely fair investigator could come to the conclusion that the Bible God is a reality, on evidence alone?

Now, of that 83% you mention, a big percentage of them would have beliefs they were very confident of, yet there is strong scientific evidence that these beliefs are false.

Do you know what percentage of Americans believe the Genesis account? It's very high, I'll tell you now, yet scientific evidence says "no".

Do you know what percentage of Americans believe a worldwide flood occured? It's very high, yet scientific evidence "no".

Do you know what percentage of Americans believe God performed miracles, even managing to stop the Sun? It's very high, yet science says "impossible".

Do you see a pattern here? I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Americans rely on evidence, rational reasoning and the scientific method every day of their lives, respecting the claims of scientists in every field until their religion is threatened, then up come the blinkers and they go into a raging denial of a kind only seen one other place - politics.

 

[Humphreys]

Here's some religious people and things I have a high opinion of:

[qimg]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Stephen_Hawking_050506.jpg[/qimg]
Steven Hawking

[qimg]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Martin_Luther_King%2C_Jr._and_Lyndon_Johnson.jpg[/qimg]
Martin Luther King

[qimg]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bob-Marley-in-Concert_Zurich_05-30-80.jpg[/qimg]
Bob Marley

[qimg]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gandhi_Downing_Street.jpg[/qimg]
Mahatma Gandhi

Gospel music.

Roots reggae.

[qimg]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Notre_Dame_de_Paris%2C_front_view%2C_summer_2004..JPG[/qimg]
Notre Dame de Paris

Here's a list of Christian people who've done some heavy thinking in regards to evidence and their faith:

List of Christian thinkers in science.

I have a high opinion of all of those people too, but only one when it comes to religious beliefs/thought processes, and that's Hawking, and I'd hardly call him religious. Dawkins doesn't call him religious for the same reason as I - he isn't actually religious at all, and the God he believes in is not a God at all, by any popular definition.

 

[Abooga]

"It's funny to see believers and skeptics uniting against conspiracy nuts, just like last year with The DaVinci Code." said EeneyMinnieMoe.

Perhaps I tend to see cospiracies everywhere, but since the Vatican MUST have a large press center/spin doctoring section, I can´t help suspecting that the huge media impact of the Da Vinci Code novel was to some extent orchestrated and amplified by the Vatican themselves, because of the easily rebuttable inacuracies contained in the book and the lack of questioning about the existance of Jesus. What do you clever forum members think about this? Why didn´t they make such a big fuss about books like Ed Doherty´s "The Jesus Myth" or many others, or ever about Luigi Cascioli´s famous lawsuit. (By the way, is it true that Luigi made a terrible mistake and John of Gamala is a fictional character?)