Differences in Sex Development (aka "intersex")

I don't like the idea that an opposing team could challenge a competitor's sex, as such an action could be weaponized. Therefore, I think those tests and verification should be required of every athlete before they enter into competition in their first IOC event.

That way no athlete would go through public speculation about their sex.

Absolutely. This is entirely the IOC's fault. The problem is that they want to allow males to compete against females. Given this reality, there was never any chance that such a testing regime would be implemented. And it never will be until the IOC decides that there shouldn't be males competing against females.

But this is where the complaints come in. The IOC is never going to change their minds based on fairness arguments, they're only going to change their minds if there's a backlash from sponsors, who in turn are responding to public outrage about the current situation. So athletes and teams have to complain about it. And they have to do so now, during the competition, when there's public attention on the problem, they have to do so by pointing out specific competitors to illustrate that problem, and that will inevitably lead to public speculation about competitors. There is no way around that without ceding nominally female competitions to males. In an ideal world this isn't how we would work out such problems, but we don't live in an ideal world, so this is the best that can be done.
 
I'm astonished by the lack of critical thinking going on here, from all concerned.

I agree.

There are also strong hints of male genitalia, including a penis larger than would be usual in a man with 5ARD. He wears a male style groin protector. Several videos clips of him celebrating after beating a woman with what might be an erection showing under his shorts. (These might be manipulated I suppose, but worth mentioning.) One clip of him apparently rearranging his junk at the end of a bout.

To critically think, one must have the evidence.

Show us what you have seen to conclude penises are involved S’il vous plaît.
 
My female friend from Algeria is Muslim and dresses like an American when she's here and switches to colorful long dresses when she's there, with no attempt to hide any part of her head anywhere at any time, unless sometimes adding a headband of beads or small jewels counts. So that is clearly the style where she's from, not stereotypical hijabs or burqas, which means, even for someone else choosing not to go with that particular style, an uncovered head means nothing.

I don't know about the likelihood of unrelated Algerian men & women hugging in public, and I haven't seen how this person behaves or dresses outside the ring anyway. I haven't seen any particularly revealing pictures of this person's crotch or any old family pictures. I note that no such pictures have been shown here and I'm not motivated to try to find them myself. And I don't know about masculine & feminine & other forms of Arabic names or why a conveniently gender-switchable name (if it is that) would've been given to a baby.

But the reality of this case is utterly obvious even if we throw all that out.

The Olympic Committee doesn't test, so being allowed to enter women's boxing in the Olympics means nothing. The only time we know Khelif's been tested by a different athletic committee, the result was gender disqualification, which Khelif started to dispute but then dropped that and accepted the committee's conclusion. The details of that test haven't been published and no other test to confirm or refute it has been done & had its results published either, both of which Khelif could've done if such test results were in Khelif's favor. And even those of us who haven't tracked down other more obscure pictures have at least all definitely seen the pictures in the ring during & shortly after the match, and we all know what women & men look like.

It's a clear, unmistakable fact that that person is physically not a woman, and we all know it, including those who deny it. It's like Biden's mental deficiency on full public display for months/years all over again. Pretending isn't fooling anybody, you're just being absurd, just give it up. I agree with socially playing along with using the pronouns people ask for on the principle of psychosocial "gender" being different from physiological "sex", but that's not what's relevant here. For the subject of how people physically perform in sports, only "sex" matters, not "gender". And, regardless of Khelif's "gender", it's perfectly clear that Khelif's "sex" is definitely not female.

Given that Khelif began to dispute that disqualification and then stopped, "intersex who only found out about it at that time" seems more likely than just "man", and "intersex" is at least a dozen different possibilities, but the bottom line is the same either way. No matter which is the specific answer, what we do know beyond any doubt is that Khelif is physically not a woman, and it would make sense for athletic associations to block people like that out of what's supposed to be women's sports, but the Olympic Committee's decision not to do so is also perfectly within the Committee's rights. It's their sport, their event, their PR, their rules. But they, and anybody else who agrees with their choice to let non-women compete with women in allegedly women's sports, can't expect everybody else to either agree with that policy or pretend that it magically means people like Khelif aren't what they are and are what they aren't.
 
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For what it's worth, people who understand Arabic say that he genders himself as male in the language. (I suspect he may not be very bright.) There's a Dorothy L Sayers story where the villain is rumbled the same way, in a letter written in French. It's very very hard to change the gender of pronouns as you learned them as a child in your native language of course. In the third person as well.
 
Do people say so?!
Is it too much to ask for a link to those people?
Preferably to the place where they say it ...
 
Do people say so?!
Is it too much to ask for a link to those people?
Preferably to the place where they say it ...

That was my reaction too.

Meanwhile it's easy to search for Arabic first-person pronouns (personal, possessive and reflexive) and it appears that they don't vary by gender. They're the equivalent of I, me, mine, myself plus the plural versions, so I'd welcome some enlightenment here.
 
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In Arabic, personal pronouns have 12 forms. In singular and plural, the 2nd and 3rd persons have separate masculine and feminine forms, while the 1st person does not.

I don't speak Arabic, but I don't know how you could gender yourself in speech when there is no gendered 1st person pronouns.

I'm more familiar with Japanese, where there is such a thing, and there cool girls and tomboys sometimes use more masculine pronouns for themselves. It doesn't make them grow a penis.

But never mind that. I guess we lack critical thinking when we don't go by what people say on the internet or conjure up imaginary big penises from clothed images. Images we are never showed.
 
So far the best reporting I've seen on the current controversy is from longtime Olympic sports journalist Alan Abrahamson of 3 Wire Sports:

Both Khelif and Lin submitted to chromosome tests at the May 2022 Women’s World Boxing Championships in Istanbul and again at the March 2023 Women’s World Boxing Championships in New Delhi. Referring to the second tests, the IBA said in a statement issued earlier this week, “The findings were absolutely identical to the first results.”

The New Delhi test results for each say “chromosome analysis reveals Male karyotype” – with a depiction of XY chromosomes. The lab is CAP-certified and ISO-certified.

3 Wire Sports has seen these tests.

Oddly enough, you won't find any of this information on mainstream news sources such as NBCOlympics.com, NBCSports.com or UniversalSports.com, all sites where Abrahamson had previously written. The articles I've seen on straight news sites like AP and Reuters have been misleading at best. Overall the reportage is something of a **** show.

I'm not going to venture an opinion on whether these two athletes are crypto-males with no DSDs or whether they have something like 5-ARD, except to say that I find the latter explanation more plausible. The truth will come out eventually, after most of the world has moved on from international amateur boxing.
 
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Since people without Twitter accounts can't read Twitter, a lot of information doesn't get circulated.

The gendering was about nouns, not pronouns.

Anyway, he has a male chromosome complement and high testosterone. I think crypto man is far more likely than 5ARD, but maybe we'll see.
 
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Just link to the twitter post, and most of the time we can see it.

You can also link directly to images posted on Twitter.
 
Article in French that is supposedly an interview with one of Khelif's trainers that (per the google translate version I saw) appears to verify XY karyotype & high (for a female) testosterone levels


ETA - Headline translates to "Imane Khelif was devastated to suddenly discover that she might not be a girl!”
 
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Since people without Twitter accounts can't read Twitter, a lot of information doesn't get circulated.

The gendering was about nouns, not pronouns.

Anyway, he has a male chromosome complement and high testosterone. I think crypto man is far more likely than 5ARD, but maybe we'll see.


After repeated requests of penis evidence which you have claimed to see but which you have failed to provide,

the follow on question is ... If they don't have a penis, which toilet should they use?
 
If I come across it again I'll post it. I don't speak Arabic but I understand it was the equivalent of a German man, pretending to be a woman, saying "Ich bin Tierarzt" instead of "Ich bin Tierärztin." Only not about veterinary medicine, obviously. Something about being a soldier, but using the masculine form of the noun.
It's the absolutely casual way his trainers treat him as another man that's really striking. Arms around his shoulders, hugging, and the infamous incident where he's riding on one man's shoulders. Uninhibited, skin to skin touching. In one shot a coach is hugging him in such a way that his head would be buried in "Imane's" cleavage, if he had a cleavage of course.

These men know perfectly well he's a man and have never known him as anything else. They're trolling the entire world, and getting away with it because of all the woke gender-addled idiots around.
 
If I come across it again I'll post it. I don't speak Arabic but I understand it was the equivalent of a German man, pretending to be a woman, saying "Ich bin Tierarzt" instead of "Ich bin Tierärztin." Only not about veterinary medicine, obviously. Something about being a soldier, but using the masculine form of the noun.
It's the absolutely casual way his trainers treat him as another man that's really striking. Arms around his shoulders, hugging, and the infamous incident where he's riding on one man's shoulders. Uninhibited, skin to skin touching. In one shot a coach is hugging him in such a way that his head would be buried in "Imane's" cleavage, if he had a cleavage of course.

These men know perfectly well he's a man and have never known him as anything else. They're trolling the entire world, and getting away with it because of all the woke gender-addled idiots around.
And what he is doing is completely rational, for a third worlder to feed his family by the best available means.
It is not as though he is plumbing greater ethical depths than the idiots in the world media who applaud bloodying the noses of real women.
 

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