Differences in Sex Development (aka "intersex")
- Thread starter d4m10n
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Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
You have absolutely no supporting evidence for your assertion.
Here's a thought for you to consider. Both Khelif and Yu-Ting were disqualified on the basis of DNA testing by IBA. Kehlif started an appeal and withdrew the challenge; Yu-Ting did not appeal at all. If they challenge, the results of those DNA tests become non-confidential.
Both Khelif and Yu-Ting are currently being challenged by a substantial part of the world as well as pretty much every single one of their olympic competitors. All they need to do to clear their names, while simultaneously rubbing everyone's faces in the dirt, is to submit to a cheek swab to confirm that they are female.
Over 80% of female athletes support sex-testing for the olympics.
Why haven't Khelif and Yu-Ting done so? If they truly are females, as you assert, it's trivially easy for them to prove it.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Hercules56 - do you also think that Caster Semenya is a female human?
Ziggurat
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We've been over this already. The definition of "woman" is no longer universally held to mean adult human female. If she is using a definition dependant more on social construction, as many do, that's not a lie. It's not my preferred definition but I don't get to force her to use mine.
Again, why do you want to erase people with DSDs? Why are you so DSD phobic?
Hercules56
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No idea.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
If you want to comment on DSD conditions it might be a good idea to familiarize yourself.
Ziggurat
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No surprise.
In my last post, I highlighted a couple things from the wikipedia article that are directly relevant to your argument here. Not sure how accurate it is, being wikipedia, but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif
It is unclear if IBA tested DNA, testosterone. or both as contradictory satements have been made:
https://www.sportingnews.com/au/olympics/news/imane-khelif-condition-explained-gender-fact-check/51994b8a2e23e7b423782f7a
We don't actually know if she has a DSD or (if she has one) which one she has.
IF there is a DSD, there is some grey area. With Swyer syndrome neither ovaries nor testicles develop.
https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/
I'd be hard pressed to say definitively that an XY woman is male or that an XX man is female.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I think that is a fair assessment, but the overarching theoretical question is whether the IOC (or any international sporting body) needs to set clear standards for inclusion in the sports category designated as female. We can have this argument about Semenya or Wambui instead of the current crop of Olympians.
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Ziggurat
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True. But it's certainly possible. Even more importantly, though, the IOC rules currently permit a male with DSD to fight females. In fact, as far as I can tell, the IOC currently lets any male with a passport that says female fight females.
That's a problem, irrespective of Khelif.
If their body makes testosterone (and most females do) and they have a functioning SRY gene, they're male. If not, they are female.
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There is space in the combat games for intersex and trans.
Just not in the Olympics it seems. It makes a total farce out of female competition.
MMA and the like, even professional wrestling don't seem to care if the individual makes for good ratings on whatever media.
In the olympic teams it seems the coaches and nations in general are willing to push every limit for those gold medals. You have a edge case individual available for the female team that stands 6', can bench 400 kilos or outruns antelope it sure is tempting.
And another individual was denied a chance at her moment of fame, never would have raised an eyebrow much less caused a bunch of extra hoops to be jumped through.
Just not in the Olympics it seems. It makes a total farce out of female competition.
MMA and the like, even professional wrestling don't seem to care if the individual makes for good ratings on whatever media.
In the olympic teams it seems the coaches and nations in general are willing to push every limit for those gold medals. You have a edge case individual available for the female team that stands 6', can bench 400 kilos or outruns antelope it sure is tempting.
And another individual was denied a chance at her moment of fame, never would have raised an eyebrow much less caused a bunch of extra hoops to be jumped through.
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Rolfe
Adult human female
I'm astonished by the lack of critical thinking going on here, from all concerned.
Both Khelif and Lin are clearly male, unless they are women who have been mainlining industrial quantities of testosterone, which is also against the rules as it happens.
Lin has been comparatively discreet, deleting all his social media before leaving for Paris. I haven't seen any personal information posted about him other than that he signed off the IBA ruling, accepting that he had failed the sex test, and didn't appeal it. He accepted that he doesn't have XX chromosomes. For all I know he may have a DSD.
Khelif is entirely different and much more blatant. (He did lodge an appeal against the IBA ruling but withdrew it, perhaps on realising that this would result in the full results of the sex test being made public. He also signed and accepted the ruling.) To those claiming he has a DSD, what evidence is there of that? Only claims that he was brought up as a girl, which don't stand up to any scrutiny. A couple of childhood pictures, neither of which is recognisably him. One school shot which is quite androgynous, and the family shot with the hair ribbons. That's said to be Khelif with "her" father, brother and sister. Um, where's the sister? The other two children look like boys. Also, Khelif is said to be the youngest of the family. The boy toddler is clearly the youngest in the picture. But really, the child in the hair ribbons could be anyone. Sister, cousin, even a friend.
Then there's the claimed "birth certificate", a document clearly dated 2018, just before he started serious boxing in the women's category. None of this is persuading me that Khelif was brought up as a girl.
The most compelling thing for me is his dress and behaviour now. His Instagram page is full of photos of him, and in the ones where he isn't in sports gear he's dressed as a man. Not only no hijab (which isn't always worn in Algeria) but no women's clothes at all. He's also completely uninhibited about showing his bare knees and shoulders. If the civvy clothes ones were of a woman, it would be a woman who was telegraphing clearly that she's a butch lesbian. Same sex relationships are illegal in Algeria.
There are also strong hints of male genitalia, including a penis larger than would be usual in a man with 5ARD. He wears a male style groin protector. Several videos clips of him celebrating after beating a woman with what might be an erection showing under his shorts. (These might be manipulated I suppose, but worth mentioning.) One clip of him apparently rearranging his junk at the end of a bout.
His interactions with his coaches are completely uninhibited. Arms round shoulders, hugging, skin to skin contact. The most recent ones show a coach's face buried in what would be his cleavage if he were a woman, and him being carried on the shoulders of a coach, astride the man's head.
This is not the behaviour of someone who considers themself to be a Moslem woman, or indeed has ever taken on the role of a Moslem woman. He doesn't even seem prepared to put on any pretence of behaving like a woman, even if it might take a little of the heat out of the present situation. He's behaving like a man who has been assured that "female" is purely a matter of paperwork, and he will not be required to demean himself by dressing as a woman or actually pretending to be one. And he's not going to.
His coaches clearly know he's a man, and have no inhibitions about treating him as one. It's hardly unheard of for countries to enter a man in women's events; that's why sex testing was introduced in the first place. Algeria is clearly complicit in what's going on, probably instigated it. I might speculate they were looking for suitable DSD cases to train for women's events, couldn't find any, and induced a mediocre male to do it. Fame, fortune, sponsorship, medals. Just brazen it out, people can say what they like but the IOC only care about the passport.
Even the name. From what I can gather "Imane" is a woman's name, but "Iman", either a unisex or male form, is pronounced the same way. Some Algerian accounts on Twitter using Iman. Don't know about this, though.
So no, I don't buy that he thinks of himself as a woman now (or that anyone else does), or that he has ever believed himself to be female or lived as a Moslem woman. And I'm struggling to think of what new information might emerge that would change my mind.
Both Khelif and Lin are clearly male, unless they are women who have been mainlining industrial quantities of testosterone, which is also against the rules as it happens.
Lin has been comparatively discreet, deleting all his social media before leaving for Paris. I haven't seen any personal information posted about him other than that he signed off the IBA ruling, accepting that he had failed the sex test, and didn't appeal it. He accepted that he doesn't have XX chromosomes. For all I know he may have a DSD.
Khelif is entirely different and much more blatant. (He did lodge an appeal against the IBA ruling but withdrew it, perhaps on realising that this would result in the full results of the sex test being made public. He also signed and accepted the ruling.) To those claiming he has a DSD, what evidence is there of that? Only claims that he was brought up as a girl, which don't stand up to any scrutiny. A couple of childhood pictures, neither of which is recognisably him. One school shot which is quite androgynous, and the family shot with the hair ribbons. That's said to be Khelif with "her" father, brother and sister. Um, where's the sister? The other two children look like boys. Also, Khelif is said to be the youngest of the family. The boy toddler is clearly the youngest in the picture. But really, the child in the hair ribbons could be anyone. Sister, cousin, even a friend.
Then there's the claimed "birth certificate", a document clearly dated 2018, just before he started serious boxing in the women's category. None of this is persuading me that Khelif was brought up as a girl.
The most compelling thing for me is his dress and behaviour now. His Instagram page is full of photos of him, and in the ones where he isn't in sports gear he's dressed as a man. Not only no hijab (which isn't always worn in Algeria) but no women's clothes at all. He's also completely uninhibited about showing his bare knees and shoulders. If the civvy clothes ones were of a woman, it would be a woman who was telegraphing clearly that she's a butch lesbian. Same sex relationships are illegal in Algeria.
There are also strong hints of male genitalia, including a penis larger than would be usual in a man with 5ARD. He wears a male style groin protector. Several videos clips of him celebrating after beating a woman with what might be an erection showing under his shorts. (These might be manipulated I suppose, but worth mentioning.) One clip of him apparently rearranging his junk at the end of a bout.
His interactions with his coaches are completely uninhibited. Arms round shoulders, hugging, skin to skin contact. The most recent ones show a coach's face buried in what would be his cleavage if he were a woman, and him being carried on the shoulders of a coach, astride the man's head.
This is not the behaviour of someone who considers themself to be a Moslem woman, or indeed has ever taken on the role of a Moslem woman. He doesn't even seem prepared to put on any pretence of behaving like a woman, even if it might take a little of the heat out of the present situation. He's behaving like a man who has been assured that "female" is purely a matter of paperwork, and he will not be required to demean himself by dressing as a woman or actually pretending to be one. And he's not going to.
His coaches clearly know he's a man, and have no inhibitions about treating him as one. It's hardly unheard of for countries to enter a man in women's events; that's why sex testing was introduced in the first place. Algeria is clearly complicit in what's going on, probably instigated it. I might speculate they were looking for suitable DSD cases to train for women's events, couldn't find any, and induced a mediocre male to do it. Fame, fortune, sponsorship, medals. Just brazen it out, people can say what they like but the IOC only care about the passport.
Even the name. From what I can gather "Imane" is a woman's name, but "Iman", either a unisex or male form, is pronounced the same way. Some Algerian accounts on Twitter using Iman. Don't know about this, though.
So no, I don't buy that he thinks of himself as a woman now (or that anyone else does), or that he has ever believed himself to be female or lived as a Moslem woman. And I'm struggling to think of what new information might emerge that would change my mind.
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Ziggurat
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I know this is hyperbole, but if you can bench 400 kilos raw, you're going to be setting world records in the men's category, and by a long shot.
p0lka
Illuminator
I'm don't think 'doesnt act like a girl' counts for anything really,
But, If you have evidence of a penis, don't dance the maypole around it, flop it out as evidence for everyone else to see.
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"Do female boxers wear groin guards? Yes. Female fighters are required to wear groin protectors by the Association of Boxing Commissions."
Here's an image:
https://www.boxfituk.com/t-sport-womens-groin-guard/
It's not at all clear to me how you could tell what was a female vs. male groin protector when they're covered by shorts.
eta: ... let alone spot the outline of a penis.
Here's an image:
https://www.boxfituk.com/t-sport-womens-groin-guard/
It's not at all clear to me how you could tell what was a female vs. male groin protector when they're covered by shorts.
eta: ... let alone spot the outline of a penis.
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Rolfe
Adult human female
He was wearing the male style groin guard over his shorts during practice. Doesn't look like he was wearing anything like that during the competition. No, I don't know why.
Care to explain all touching and hugging with the male coaches?
Care to explain all touching and hugging with the male coaches?
Oh I completely agree. There should be clear rules and clear tests to verify those rules.
I don't like the idea that an opposing team could challenge a competitor's sex, as such an action could be weaponized. Therefore, I think those tests and verification should be required of every athlete before they enter into competition in their first IOC event.
That way no athlete would go through public speculation about their sex.
I've seen all manner of athletes, male and female, hugging male coaches.
No kidding. Anyone who has been around girls/women's sports has.
p0lka
Illuminator
Do you not hugg people? like, an aversion or something? Hugging feels cool.